What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Lunaxia]

Anyway, what has been apparent to me for a while is that this thread inevitably has a habit of repeating itself ad nauseum whensoever someone new (and often, not so new...) appears to disregard what has come before and make the same arguments, so the same discussions ensue, and I'm growing tired of hearing myself, let alone anybody else. Despite the occasional friction, it's been interesting to have somewhere to discuss the story in a distinctly more neutral environment (in terms of moderation, if not tone) and a comfort to realise I was far from alone in feeling alienated from the story and subsequently the community in general. Ultimately, I believe the writers knew exactly what was happening with Venat from the start, and how her decision to go ahead with the sundering would inevitably make her look, which is why they sought to have us tell her everything to remove a degree of responsibility and make her a more agreeable protagonist so that the story could be wrapped up with a neat little bow and an inspiring message at the end of 6.0 and left at that. It was massively disappointing, and I still mourn the loss of what could have been, but I feel in a better place to move on and accept the game and what we've been left with. Part of me nurses some small hope, futile as it might be, that they might address this properly one day, but for now I'll continue to play the game for what it is and play for some idle fun with the view of the story as a bonus distraction than something I'll put much stock into again.

I hope everyone else finds some degree of peace with it, and enjoys themselves either within the realms of XIV or elsewhere.

[Teraq]

but for now I'll continue to play the game for what it is and play for some idle fun with the view of the story as a bonus distraction than something I'll put much stock into again.

This is how I feel about the upcoming MSQ, I think... I'm going to play this like I did WoW – enjoying the gameplay for the most part, collecting stuff and taking screenshots in beautiful places, but treating the story as basically window dressing. There was a time between 5.2 and 6.0 where I would frantically watch for any new bit of information or interviews. Hyping myself up, watching live letters / fan fests actually live when I could and comparing trailer lines between EN and FR. Now... I couldn't bring myself to even watch the 6.1 trailer.

Though I suppose it's still got some of its claws into me via Pandaemonium... sweet baby Zodiark, will of the planet made manifest, help me or so

Yoshida's comment about people looking too deep into the story is so baffling. He saw people stand and applaud Ishikawa because of Shadowbringers' story... Did that not hint that people care more for the story than he thinks...?

Besides they're the ones who keep putting the MSQ front and center when marketing the game. Why is it surprising there are players who witness the plot in more detail than others in such a story driven game?

Yyep. I see now it was a mistake to treat this story as anything but window dressing, actually!

[Rulakir]

Yoshida stated that he didn't think people looked this far into the story. Well, apparently neither do the writers, because this story should have never happened. it comes off as gross just for the sake of pushing ideals.

Conspiracy theory time. :P

I've thought EW wasn't the story Ishikawa wanted to tell. Given that she was having to rewrite the script to be more 'agreeable' to the team up until 2 days short of the deadline, it makes me think that it was too late to change Venat's actions and the best she could do within the limited time frame was to make her and the sundering appear positive through gratuitous narrative gaslighting. (The fact that she largely managed to pull this off is astounding.) Likely because someone (probably Yoshi-P) told her Hydaelyn can't be a 'bad guy'. There are interviews with Yoshi-P back in ShB wondering why people are so quick to believe Emet when they haven't heard Hydaelyn's side of the story yet. Emet never lied to us, Venat had been since Elpis. (Not to mention if people were that quick to believe an Ascian then I'd say that's evidence a decent amount of people didn't buy into Hydaelyn being a 'good guy'.)

Assuming that is not the case then all I can say is that Ishikawa needed more time to sit on the story. This is still ultimately Yoshi-P's fault for rushing a conclusion that she said in interviews could've gone until 8.0. She also seemed to have not only less creative freedom this time, but was also said to be so overburdened that others had to take over parts of the story for her. Based on what I've read, it seems like Yoshi-P was heavily involved in the Mothercrystal cutscene (aside from being obsessed with getting her face 'just right' for a month), which might explain the weird inconsistency with the Azem crystal. It wouldn't at all surprise me if he also had Emet 'forgive' Venat in UT since we know he's responsible for the bucket list to give players something to look forward to, I can easily see him wanting the 'fan favorite' to acknowledge Venat to further cement her characterization even though most of us were painfully aware how out of character that dialog was for him.

On a general (but related) note, one thing that occurred to me was the cutscene where Venat herself states during one of the recordings from Anamnesis Anyder that their actions will earn them the "eternal condemnation" of their people.

There were literally only 3 survivors of the sundering, yet we're not supposed to take their accounts seriously because they're Ascians. How terribly convenient.

Also, I wouldn't worry about repeating yourself too much since we get new people to the thread all the time and I recently found out that it's routinely linked to 5ch. So, hello to JP players translating this right now!

Unfortunately, I'm beginning to doubt I'll ever find peace with this story. As a new(er) player I don't have the time sunk cost. I like other aspects of the game, but ever since this horrible ending I've just lost desire to play. Unless the post patches turn out something amazing I don't see myself sticking around to 7.0. My main goal is getting my SO (who doesn't have much free time) through ShB, then it'll be a lot easier to get that second foot out the door.

[Lunaxia]

Though I suppose it's still got some of its claws into me via Pandaemonium... sweet baby Zodiark, will of the planet made manifest, help me or so

I actually really enjoyed Pandemonium, brief as it was, and apparently there is an element of me that refuses to learn, because I'm genuinely still looking forward to that part of the game, at least! I've been fond of the Ancients since their introduction regardless of their role within the MSQ, and it's a treat just to be able to sink my teeth into a good story with them for once without all of the controversy. The background so far regarding Ericthonios and his parents promises some of the depth I had long been hoping for, along with, dare I say, some justice for Elidibus' character... and in any event, if it doesn't quite work out that way, I won't be too sore if all I come away with is a few hours of Ancients lore and themed glamours.

The void is... well, the void, to me. I'll say that if they do take us there, it's a clever move on the writers' part. They do epic fantasy settings really quite well, and a brand new setting will better offset the comedown from Endwalker's space travel over a bland trip to another corner of Hydaelyn. If the game is fun, and the gear is nice, I'm fine with it. I enjoyed the Mhach raids and their backdrops well enough.

[Saraide]

Conspiracy theory time. :P

I've thought EW wasn't the story Ishikawa wanted to tell. Given that she was having to rewrite the script to be more 'agreeable' to the team up until 2 days short of the deadline, it makes me think that it was too late to change Venat's actions and the best she could do within the limited time frame was to make her and the sundering appear positive through gratuitous narrative gaslighting. (The fact that she largely managed to pull this off is astounding.) Likely because someone (probably Yoshi-P) told her Hydaelyn can't be a 'bad guy'. There are interviews with Yoshi-P back in ShB wondering why people are so quick to believe Emet when they haven't heard Hydaelyn's side of the story yet. Emet never lied to us, Venat had been since Elpis. (Not to mention if people were that quick to believe an Ascian then I'd say that's evidence a decent amount of people didn't buy into Hydaelyn being a 'good guy'.)

I feel like I remember emet telling us that he wont interfere with us disposing of the lightwardens and that turned out to be not exactly the truth. Quite the opposite infact.

[aveyond-dreams]

Thank you @thaliaksname from twitter for this wonderful template image. This seemed like a fun idea so I'm posting it here:



Will post my filled out version later on, was wondering what others would do with it in the meantime

[SentioftheHoukai]

This was actually rather predictable, if you take the focus off Meteion herself and more onto "The Ancients created their own doom".

People were allllll over that in ShB, as far as I can remember.

I mean, I hate it, of course. I would much rather have had the Final Days be a tragedy that randomly befell a fundamentally good people, some kind of Eldritch being/phenomena the Ancients had nothing to do with and no control over. But they went with blaming the victims, of course. Muh (broken) aesop.

Day of Lavos, when?! Lavos and Jenova team up, BABEH! Oh, wait. It's too late....

Thank you @thaliaksname from twitter for this wonderful template image. This seemed like a fun idea so I'm posting it here:



Will post my filled out version later on, was wondering what others would do with it in the meantime

Ryne's a Scion?! Could have fooled me, everyone but the WoL seems to have have abandoned her on the First. Imagine if we failed to spank Mother, bye bye Ryne! Hope you enjoy being snuffed out, not knowing how or why your Shard is rotting as we fuck off on the Moon ship to get eaten by Black Materia Twitter!

[Rulakir]

I suck at art programs. :P

Wasn't sure how detailed I should get or if anyone would really care. Those who do care, well...

Alphinaud: He's not a bad egg, but I'm just so tired of him. He's practically been attached to my hip since ARR and I need some space. He had a wonderful arc in HW and I genuinely came to like him after hating him in ARR, but I feel his character hasn't developed much since. He's just kind of the diplomat who follows me around and gives sanctimonious speeches. (The quote in the image was my SO's feelings on Alphinaud I thought were appropriate. :P)

Alisaie: I would like some space from her, but overall she's my girl. She always seems to care about me on a personal level not just for what I can accomplish and I appreciate that when I'm mostly surrounded by people with "shared" goals rather than real friends. I think her breaking down whenever the WoL is in dire straits is sweet.

Minfilia: Can DIAF. Useless damsel-in-distress who ruined Thancred's character because the writers decided to make him obsessed with her. Not to mention creepy Hydaelyn simp.

Thancred: OG crush, sexiest of the Scions, but unfortunately regulated to some lame "My Two Dads" thing with Urianger. Apparently he's just doomed to always be paired with characters I can't stand. I miss when he was a flirt and I wish he was into the WoL even a little bit.

Urianger: Needs to take a hike. Can't stand his duplicity and even as of EW that hasn't changed. I have no idea why I'm forced to have someone I don't trust as a permanent part of my team or why I'm forced to repeatedly forgive him (fool me once), but here we are.

Y'shtola: I hate to repeat myself, but I'm just so tired of her too. She's not as amusing as Matoya, as of EW her character is inconsistent (course that's true for just about everyone), and given the choice of scholar I'd sooner take G'raha. I don't feel any closeness to her at all, but I gave her 2 stars just because of familiarity and I don't completely hate her.

G'raha: I adore G'raha. I know that's an unpopular opinion in this thread, but I don't care. I will take him everywhere. :P

Estinien: My Ishgardian bro and, at least when he's not being used for stupid comic relief, a much needed realist on the team. I did prefer when he was a loner though. I don't think he has a reason to stay with the Scions and his interests lie elsewhere. When dragons aren't involved it just seems weird for him to be there.

Tataru: She's okay. I don't have feelings one way or another about her. I basically just view her as an administrator.

Krile: I didn't think she was that great of a character beforehand and I want nothing to do with her now.

Ryne: I liked her and genuinely felt bad for her throughout ShB. I wouldn't really say she's a close friend so maybe 4 stars is generous.

[MatchaokaCha]

I had a sneaking suspicion Ishikawa was under pressure to change the script halfway. She's too aware of current world politics and news to make this into a simple story with "paradise bad, uhh keep fighting cause anime" morals. If this is true then man did they screw up what could've been an incredible story arc encompassing the franchise, and I really mean that. I made a comment in another thread about how the story DEFINITELY felt rushed with a significant amount of missing pages of script.

The message in Endwalker rings hollow and stupidly pretentious to me: Achieving peace and happiness for all is how society grows complacent, so man needs to be made to suffer for eternity and just fight through the pain cuz YOLO? Are you kidding me? How in seven HELLS do you justify the suffering of millions and millions and their subsequent horrific deaths?

The Dynamis is such an obvious MacGuffin shoved in with Meteion at the last minute to justify the sundering, which the Ascians took issue with AFTER Hydaelyn decided to sabotage their plans of saving the star. This reminds me of Spira in FFX. Hydaelyn literally creates an unending spiral of death and DESPAIR, and we're manipulated to frame this as a necessary evil. The ironic thing for me is that Venat ultimately became less interesting than her FFXII namesake since there's not much to say on whether her actions were ultimately deplorable and nuanced. They both aim for the same goal, but the ffxii version had a certain mystery behind its actions compounded with the fact that it sides with the antagonists.

All of this just reminds me when Ishikawa said her favorite character was "Fandaniel and his ???" I wondered if she meant Hermes, as in his past self, and the larger conflict originally involved the isolation of divergent beings that weren't "fit" to exist within the perfect social systems and institutions that encompassed the entire star. I feel like Hermes and Fandaniel were supposed to be a lot more than what they were written to be. Meteion was only a facet of Hermes' nature, and she's clearly symbolic of his depression. She lacks any real agency when she turns into the villain anyways. I just don't understand why Meteion exists outside of justifying Hydaelyn's actions.

[Theodric]

Found this on reddit, it's so frustrating how this has all played out. We have a playerbase that chases out writers like Matsuno and Maehiro and the players they attract with their style of storytelling. And now here we are with no Corvosi weapons, no Lunar weapons, no Mt. Ordeals with a Mythgraven Blade waiting for us at the end, no, we get Manderville weapons instead.

Guess the song Kiss Me Goodbye that played at the end of FFXII works here too.

I also know that Covid/the global conflicts happening right now seem to keep having an impact on the way things are produced by CBU3. While their consideration is obviously coming from a place of good intention, in FFXIV's case it is compromising story content and in FFXVI's case delayed a trailer despite it focusing on anything but the political plotlines in that game aside from one line about the Empire. I'm not sure that continuing to do things this way is sustainable long term.

As someone who writes a lot there are times when I've had bouts of what can vaguely describe as subtle paranoia when it comes to what I'm willing to put my characters through depending on what is going on at the time. Sometimes something happens and I want to re-imagine the story in my head but feel guilt about not doing events justice. I fear writing things in distasteful ways, yet I also have to be aware that if I don't write something with actual substance then what I've written isn't worth reading, so I have to take those risks sometimes. Some of my major regrets when it comes to my previous writing is when I *didn't* take those risks, when I wasn't bold enough.

That's pretty disappointing to read. It was actually Matsuno's work that got me invested in JRPG's in the first place. I liked that his stories had actual consequences, deep characters and plenty of nuance. I like his approach to world building as well.

I do hope that the development team realise that variety is the spice of life and that some of us very much do want mature and heavy content to be present in the game. I really don't want both the MSQ's and all side content to be dictated by slice of life content and a dire lack of consequences.

It'd be nice if Matsuno could be invited back at some point in the future to handle FFXIV's version of Lea Monde or some such. An adventure written by him would pique my interest - especially if he were allowed to tap into similar aesthetics as were present in Vagrant Story.