The absolute state of Frontlines

[Divinemights]

But what you are saying here applies to any job. It's not a weakness of summoners which somehow compensates for the elements that are unbalanced in FL.

That is the point, Summoner is just one of the job can be killed by same method, nothing more.
As long as someone is doing focus target marking.
As I said earlier, Summoner is an overate job manifesting from NA's unique Horde Stampede playstyle.
NA players in general travel together and attack together in group and often tunnel vision to a target with low HP and ignored where they stand.
This strategy works until 6.1 introduced coordinated killer combo.
Beside Summoner stacking, the typical one is DRK charge in with Eventide, Salten Earth, then Salt and Darkness and wait for Afflatus Purgation

Another issue is not a lot NA players are doing focus target marking in which it is a requirement to win the Frontline.
If you pay attention, a lot of NA summoners will start with Crimson Charge then use Guard to make their way out freely because they know opposite team has no one mark them.
There are many jobs can break the Guard and imagine Summoner's Guard got break in middle of enemy.
People need to learn instead of complain assuming they knows everything.

[Gserpent]

MNK and RPR would become meta jobs if people focused like you suggested, as they both have very short charge times on their guard-breaking LBs. Hell, I play NIN most of the time and I get away with murder (literally) by just tapping guard immediately after I finish killing someone with LB. So many times I can just LB someone deep in enemy lines, Guard for a few seconds and watch numerous stuns and binds bounce off, and then just shukuchi away to safety. Between potions, huton, and purify (if needed), it's pretty much completely safe *unless* there's someone on the enemy team with enough situational awareness to recognize that they could get a free kill on that BH5 NIN.

But NA players are oblivious. There's a *huge* "it's pvp idc I just want XP/my horsey" attitude problem with FL on NA servers. People don't want to learn or try and improve, they just want free stuff.

[Naphtha]

Thread got hijacked by Summoners and Summoner-apologists, kek.

[SonjaRampage]

Waah waah I can't survive 5 people limit breaking me all at the same time.

[gioroggia]

That is the point, Summoner is just one of the job can be killed by same method, nothing more.
As long as someone is doing focus target marking.
As I said earlier, Summoner is an overate job manifesting from NA's unique Horde Stampede playstyle.
NA players in general travel together and attack together in group and often tunnel vision to a target with low HP and ignored where they stand.
This strategy works until 6.1 introduced coordinated killer combo.
Beside Summoner stacking, the typical one is DRK charge in with Eventide, Salten Earth, then Salt and Darkness and wait for Afflatus Purgation

Another issue is not a lot NA players are doing focus target marking in which it is a requirement to win the Frontline.
If you pay attention, a lot of NA summoners will start with Crimson Charge then use Guard to make their way out freely because they know opposite team has no one mark them.
There are many jobs can break the Guard and imagine Summoner's Guard got break in middle of enemy.
People need to learn instead of complain assuming they knows everything.

Again, that is a non-argument. It says absolutely nothing about summoner's efficiency relative to other jobs since it applies to every job.

[gioroggia]

That's the thing though - it's not unbalanced. It's fine. The proper change here is *no change at all.* The issue is a player skill and knowledge issue, *not a balance issue.*

You do not ever, *ever* design or balance a competitive game around the majority of (typically very, very bad) players. You balance it around the very best, and the impacts of those changes trickle down to the lower tiers of player. FL isn't some kind of sweaty hardcore esports game and isn't intended to be, but it's still a competitive game and should still be tuned like one.

SMN does not need any changes whatsoever, beyond the likely *systemic* changes we can expect - higher DR on melee and tanks, longer LB charge times, and so on. You said yourself that you don't die to SMN/Megaflare spamming, so that *very obviously* means that it's something that doesn't need adjustment - it needs players to stop playing like complete garbage.

Hey, buddy, not a single FL match is played solely by the "very best". Note that you are referring to a hypothetical, nonexistent state of the game where people are much better than they actually are, and founding your argument upon what you THINK would happen if the game were that way. Not only are you relying on a state of the world that does not exist, but you are also making weak, unverifiable claims about it. That makes for a very flimsy argument.

On the other hand, you can join any FL game and most of the time summoners will occupy most if not all of the top-damage spots and will be the first to reach Battle High V. That is actual, solid evidence of the imbalance exists in the state of the game as it is, regardless of how you believe it would be in your hypothetical, nonexistent world.

The image is of course just anedoctal evidence, but it is a pattern we are all too familiar with.

[CapaxInfiniti]

Thread got hijacked by Summoners and Summoner-apologists, kek.

"My broken job is fine. Please don't nerf my broken job because I enjoy being broken"
Thats basically summoners right now.

[Mistress_Irika]

I'm very tempted to see how a PLD-SAM duo would hold up against a bunch of SMNs

[Divinemights]

I have something better, duo Monks wiped a bunch of SMNs

[Naphtha]

I'm very tempted to see how a PLD-SAM duo would hold up against a bunch of SMNs

Would the debuff from that counter skill (cba with SAM skillnames) still show up if you hit one who is Covered? If so, that's a pretty good idea.