6.2 Hrothgar Update

[hfang]

churro bro sometimes you just need to learn to stop talking

[Karowolus]

Snip because this is a link and you can read the post yourself.

Sturm, this is the thing.... This thread is about.. Our wishes for 6.2. It's OUR speculation of what could be added, it's what WE want for 6.2. You can be in support of us all you want, but the second you almost try to minimalize the issues we have? Lower quality assets my ass. Im sure you can deal with your tail being removed from armour for one piece of armour that you might not wear. Because guess what, we too. Have a tail, that gets removed when we wear this armour. We too, have terrible assets from heads that were literally reshaped to fit garbage hairstyles to body textures that make 32 bit look detailed. Sparse introduction of new hairstyles? I haven't had a new hairstyle since I started to play this game. Im happy with that. But when I'm given options, and the options are just displays of laziness and mediocrity from either the developer's side or the artist's side that are so obviously just ports of unwanted hairstyles because guess what...

MOST HUMANOID HAIRSTYLES DON'T FIT ONTO FACES WITH MUZZLES.

The thing is. We don't care if you were 'one of the first'. Because to those of us that have played for less time... We really don't care, it's not a race. All I care about is that the race that literally got me to buy the game is treated as well as the other races and not left to the side like some unwanted stepchild. This forum is not here for you to almost downplay the issues that we are pointing out about our race. This thread is for people to state what they'd like to see, improvements to HROTHGAR. Read. Hroth-gar.

Put simply... You are talking yourself into a hole, and we really aren't going to offer you a ladder to climb back up. You can't be talking about hairstyles and hrothgar in the same sentence and trying to make out that your hairstyle that will probably be locked behind RNG upon RNG that might be good, but might be absolute garbage is MORE IMPORTANT than the general fidelity of an entire RACE.

Like, as XiRon said, it sucks being basically told that the race I play is the reason their game development is so slow because they gave us an unfinished product by splitting focus between two races when they could have just...Y'know.... Released one then the other... Imagine knowing that there's people out there that think that way about you. But you wouldn't know that... As a race whose Male counterpart was only added due to FAN DEMAND. You'd think you'd be more in support of... Y'know. Other races getting the treatment that the fans are asking for.

[Midareyukki]

Like, as XiRon said, it sucks being basically told that the race I play is the reason their game development is so slow because they gave us an unfinished product by splitting focus between two races when they could have just...Y'know.... Released one then the other...

The playerbase is honestly just as bad

We already have to deal with furry comments, because people just think furries are degenerates and can't come up with original jokes of their own.
We already had to deal with Viera players whinging that our race stole Male Viera from them.

Why is it that we have to deal with people insisting "Oh the devs designed this race to be like this in the first place, get over it"?

So much in this game had a design in mind and it got changed halfway through. So much in this game changed because the fans asked. Hell, this game only exists because fans asked and showed support for improvements. If you're such a player and you're that old, you'd know so:
- Male Miqo'te
- Female Roegadyn
- Genderlocked gear
- Now people are asking for Genderlocked gear to be removed, and they're slowly working on it
- A Gunblade-wielding class
- A Scythe-wielding class
- GPose and its utilities
- FFXI-style Bard Performance
- Improvements to older or controversial content (Eureka and Blue Mage)
- VIERA AS A WHOLE

The devs said nothing about us being designed this way on purpose on official statements. And if they were designed on purpose, it still doesn't matter because so much of this game was changed already due to fan support. So literally, what the hell. That's such a garbage statement to make, it's frankly an insult at this point. It's nothing more than gatekeeping and discrimination. One that grows worse because the devs keep dismissing us altogether. And that's where I pin the blame on: the devs should know that their silence and the way they've been treating us makes us too easy a target. It just feels like bullying in an MMO. It's not even toxic, it's just ridiculously sad. To know that you're going to be mistreated by the fanbase on Character Creation. To know that you're going to get told to "shut up and take it" by people who don't even know what it feels like.

Because we get it. A race is more than just coding or tweaking 3D polygons. But holy crap, listen to yourselves!

Honestly at this point it just feels like picking on us is too easy. So much for the good and inclusive community people insist on throwing at new players.

[SturmChurro]

...

They were never meant to be a full race from their inception, and that's where the issues stem. Don't worry I have made sure to include viera when I say I don't think hrothgar should have been added anymore. I like viera. The fact of the matter is the game would be better off without either, at least until it would have been sustainable for them to do the races right. Still, they are added, and Yoshida already addressed the matter. Getting anything in that patch is wishful thinking, getting an apology is probably the same, in my opinion. I mean, I won't rule out that they could get something sooner than later, but realistically speaking, I'd say you all might get a hair with ears by next expansion - if you are lucky. Who knows though, maybe Yoshida hasn't ruled out a hair with ears showing in an update sometime this expansion. I am in support of viera/hrothgar getting updates, but after three years of hoping for something of quality, I came to the realization that that is unlikely to ever happen, and thus the races should have never been added.

The reality is, they are a limited race. Even if Yoshida hasn't outright stated they were "limited" specifically, doesn't change that fact. They were never meant to get hairstyles OR headgear (not even glasses). Even when they said they would get hairstyles they were supposed to be racial specific. Hrothgar having to fantasia to switch their wig was acceptable from the outset. Now, obviously, I think SE underestimated how much people would have wanted to customize their hrothgar, but that's beside the point. They were designed in a corner, and now it's supposedly excessively difficult to update them the 'right' way. He definitely shouldn't have tried to placate the hrothgar community with those styles, however viera were getting hairs (of also suspect quality, just fit better on a viera head) and he probably didn't want hrothgar to feel left out.

The game was in a different state when they were added. I do think SE made an error in approving viera/hrothgar. It was their "last chance" to add races, and this good intention has turned sour. Granted, covid was right around the corner, and they had no way of knowing it. That simply made everything more difficult. Viera/hrothgar are part of the reason their development schedule is slowed, and that is a fact explained by Yoshida himself on how costly races are. Like, I'm sorry, but it's a fact. I also thought male viera shouldn't have been added so soon, and was against the prospect from the start. Now we have male viera who are just as limited as their female counterpart. So I am in agreement with many hrothgar players on that front. Without male viera maybe it would have been more plausible to update male hrothgar or female viera. Also, it wouldn't have set the precedent for female hrothgar - which will be just another drain on resources, unless they somehow overhaul how they add races by then.

[Midareyukki]

which will be just another drain on resources, unless they somehow overhaul how they add races by then.

That's the rub, isn't it?

Like, hear me out.

Yes, hairs are not as straightforward as modders make it look like. Maybe. I don't know. I'm not a modder, I don't know if SE has strict standards, I don't know if a Hrothgar walking around with hair is a strain on anything. Making a mod for hair is easy, but it's not clear-cut. But SE didn't expand on their standards. All they gave us was "it's too hard" and ran away.
Yes, Hrothgar is a different race, not everything will fit. They need to work on things to fit, but they say stuff doesn't fit their criterion.
A criterion which isn't applied equally; they claim to dislike clipping... or at least, that we the playerbase don't like clipping. But even the final boss of Endwalker clips through itself. And some Hrothgar hairstyles clip through gearsets. It's not abnormal, many hairstyles do if they're long enough.

It's clear they need to overhaul our races, right? I mean, they're poorly designed to begin with, the it's done is a complete mess... And I've stated this before: I think that is why they're changing the races and some graphics.
I just think that by focusing on other races first and just throw low-end crap at us is going to hurt them in the long run. Because it's more and more stuff they'll need to address.

It's obvious it won't come in 6.2. Not such a sizeable change to the game. They NEED to overhaul how these races are, but for that they need time and resources. And what I've been saying so far is:
1 - They need to understand that the fans actually do want that overhaul
2 - They need to allocate resources for it
3 - They need to prepare themselves
Because what we got in 6.1 shows they didn't prepare, allocate time and resources. Just operated blindly.
We KNOW it's a drain. But it has to happen eventually. If it doesn't, then this will never change, and that isn't fair.
It obviously won't come in 6.2. But if we don't say anything, such an overhaul won't EVER come. You saw how 6.1 went. If we don't say anything, odds are they won't do anything at all.

The problem lies in communication, which is both sparse (they don't give enough\not often) and negligent (it's not transparent and misses the point). And given other topics, this one caused a large uproar. Yet BLM had a post, DRG had a post. We just had one comment.

On Viera, I don't want to exclude them. It's just that their situation hasn't escalated like ours has.

Just keep in mind though. You have good points. It's just that you essentially say "It should have been better, but it's not, so deal with it" when saying that we were designed like this and get over it. If I told YOU that, you wouldn't like it either, would you?

[kyyninen_kirahvi]

Churro, none of these things at this point really matter anymore. While everything you've said is most likely true, the fact that hrothgars have been neglected and viera has had the spotlight is undeniable. Viera is the more customisable race. Male vieras are a thing.

Now shift the work on hroths, please. That's all that we ask. If the problem is the head, release the head customisation at the aesthetician. If only existing haircuts are added to all heads, make them good looking and let us keep our ears. If no race specific haircuts are made, LET US KNOW, and if they are, make them available with every head. Headgear would be nice for at least for the artifact sets. Square has had the time since hroth release to see what people want with them and now act surprised? If they have no interest in the race they should say it out right.

Hrothgars are filled with bad design but that is not an excuse to continue to do things badly.

[Midareyukki]

...how often will I (and other people for that matter) need to keep saying the same thing over and over?

Because seriously, this has derailed into the same usual dumb loop that we've had in 3 other threads.

Are people even reading what we write? Because this stuff's bloody obvious by now, just pay attention and read.

...So re-railing it back. 6.2's coming up eventually, I wonder if they will re-enable ears on the hairstyles they added. It's as simple as a boolean switch, so unless I'm missing something on their critera or standards, it should be easily done. Clipping is... unfortunate, but a part of virtually every 3D game afaik.
It's the bare minimum fans asked for after 6.1. So I'm with OP, they could at least re-enable those. If not, I wonder what sort of problems such a change causes that they'd be unwilling to do it. Surely it can't be polygon count? We don't even have ear animations o.o

[SturmChurro]

...

I seriously doubt the devs read the English forums, let alone the cms. Maybe a moderator comes in here on occasion to read a post or thread after a flood of reports. You all probably need to start compiling your feedback on Twitter, then it might get noticed. It's been three years, and Yoshida was "surprised" by the feedback. Let that sink in.

They do need to overhaul the races, but that will take quite a bit of time. No it won't happen in 6.2, and I doubt it will happen anytime this expansion, frankly I doubt it will happen next expansion either - for viera/hrothgar at least. As I said prior, hrothgar are a novelty race to SE and meant to be so. I don't think they have any real intentions on actually overhauling the limited races. To me it sounds like they have dug their feet in, either you all get faster hairs with no ears, or you wait for a significant period of time for an occasional style. No elaborations, and the silence tells me they have zero intentions on streamlining this process (if it's even possible) anytime in the foreseeable future, and I suspect female hrothgar will be in the exact same boat as male hrothgar. On top of the fact that more frequent updates sets the precedent that they are expected to actually support viera/hrothgar more in the future. They could probably make hat hair for viera for example, and even make more headpieces work, but that would set that precedent that they are expected to do so from then on.

...

Viera were ignored for pretty much the entirety of ShB. Male viera was flooded on all platforms, and is objectively a more popular request. The big thing with viera is: they are popular in Japan. If any feedback is going to reach them it's Japanese feedback and Twitter spam.

[Midareyukki]

snip, also curse 3Kchar

I do let that sink in. Churro .-. my whole posts so far have been calling them out on that.

And tbh I'm gonna wait and see. The new race lift is gonna be after 6.3, right? That won't be enough, nowhere near enough, to deal with Hrothgar and Viera. Issue is, if they don't have any intentions of overhauling us, they should say so. That's literally all we want to know: for them to come clean and be frank with us.

They did dig their feet in. Both of them. If they come and state "Yeah, sorry but you guys are out of the equation", then there will be our answer. We'll be satisfied on that front. But then we'll have every right to point and say "Yeah. And we're discriminated for it". Until they do, though, people will keep nagging them over and over. Damned if they do, damned if they don't. But at least one will help reverse the tide of mistrust that came with 6.1, not just Hrothgar. Housing, BLM nepotism, Adventurer Cards, PvP being bugged to hell and back tenfold...

They probably don't read the forums other than just passing comments. It's how they got Reaper; he specifically said the Western community asked for it, not the JP one. So there is some level of awareness about what we write. And even so, JP did at least point out how they felt. With less posts than us, but JP doesn't really care either. They tend to post on their own social media, which SE does pay attention to.
But that doesn't mean we should stop trying altogether. They want feedback, they got their feedback right here, so don't they dare say they didn't get any.
In the end, the final thing we'd question them for is if they're paying attention overall.

Also, Viera weren't ignored in ShB. We got Male Viera, how do you think that happened? They listened. A lot of Viera players badgered SE for them when they had enough bothering Hrothgar players for "stealing male Viera". That didn't come out of nowhere. They just didn't get fixes. For the reasons you yourself mentioned. But they did listen... just not what they were supposed to >w>
And that's what a lot of people end up criticising those who demand Female Hrothgar so much: You saw what happened to Male Viera. After 6.1 are you SURE you want that?
Besides, this ain't no Viera thread. Viera have issues, but, and I say this again, the situation has escalated on our side. If Viera wanted their stuff addressed, they have every right to do so in their own threads. And they'll have my support there.

[SturmChurro]

..

I should clarify, female viera were ignored throughout ShB, it wasn't until the very end of the expansion that they even said that they were looking into adding hairs. For that matter, the hair that was made for viera is of suspect quality, like I said. I was there waiting for hairstyles on viera for two and a half years, and that hair was all we got. Male viera were just dropped on us one day, supposedly being done in some devs' free time. Viera even get their ears cut off in reaper form, not that they are the only ones who had that happen to them: au ra get their horns removed, and tailed races lose their tails - even though they said that races would have unique reaper forms.. so much for that.

I don't know when that racial update will be, I don't really follow SE's liveletters, but if it's coming that soon, that is honestly surprising to me. I am glad for it in any case if it's true. Viera/hrothgar getting a full on overhaul - anytime soon at least - I definitely seriously doubt.

It doesn't matter if Yoshida made that statement or not, people would be nagging him regardless for an update. It would literally make zero difference, and I'm really not sure what an empty "sorry" would accomplish either. For that matter, it would require them to admit fault. This is how the race was designed from the start. You all getting an earless hairstyle is a bonus in their view, I'd say.