"I don't want to think while I play, so no one should be allowed to."

[anhaato]

So goes a large portion of responses to discussion threads about wanting jobs to be complex and diverse again. This is especially rampant for healer discussion, being that it's the role that takes the least effort to play with how simplified they've each become. A lot of people seem to like healers as they are now. Totally valid. However much of the playerbase they represent, beyond me! But either way they're ever present ready to tell us that healers as they are now represent what their idea of a healer is, and their idea is the correct one.

I think this illuminates a greater issue with the community: the "I got mine" mentality. That's to say, whenever we discuss having issues with certain content or lack thereof, wanting certain QoL features, or asking for a level of depth that used to be there but was removed recently, there's always a few combatting it because they enjoy what there is now and don't want the devs to begin catering to us, even if it would come at no cost to the content they enjoy.

Why should healer jobs not be more complex than they are? You're not held at gunpoint forced to optimize anything in this game. Job complexity is 100% optional difficulty. It would placate those of us who don't want to fall asleep during roulettes without necessarily needing to introduce an entire new midcore mode of content (though that would be nice too), while everyone else still has the liberty to play at as suboptimal a level as they want. If you want to do the absolute bare minimum dps you have the freedom to do so already, just looking at the number of curebots you get in your average daily roulette runs that you still manage to clear with.

Frankly, I don't understand the mentality. Even if I don't particularly care about deep dungeons, I was still happy to hear that we're getting one this expansion because I know there were a sizable number of people who wanted one. I feel we should be encouraging practices that cater towards every player, instead of only caring that the devs focus on ourselves and no one else.

And this is not to invite debate on "but overworked devs" or whatever. I've heard it all already, and it's a terrible excuse. They were capable of it back in Stormblood, which was when FFXVI development started, so they should be just as capable now. And for that matter, they'd have less workload if they weren't reworking (ruining) jobs just for the hell of it. It's a self fulfilling prophecy.

[Kolsykol]

There's certain things I think some people view as '' QoL '' that aren't, especially when it comes to merging combos and stuff like that which is more gameplay oriented.
The reality is that people would feel compelled to use it because not using it would handicap yourself, if something is borderline mandatory because it's just so much more efficient then it's no longer a QoL feature really it's just a design revamp.
This is a lesson we should've learned from boss addons as well as other addons that have become normalized in a certain other MMO, people find ways to rationalize why it's '' not a big deal, just a small QoL thing '' but in effect it's really not especially not when it actually starts creeping into the design of the actual gameplay.
I like the combo system too and I wish they'd instead do something more interesting with it ( more combos, I miss Dancing Edge on NIN but make it more dynamic with more real decision making sorta like MNK ).
If you go the PvP route then all it ends up being is a 1 button spam which begs the question why even have them to begin with, it's only a visual thing at that point there's no other purpose to it and the skill floor ( albeit low ) is completely removed.
It's not hard to see people feeling pressured into using it even if they don't want to.
Not gonna go further into this I could go on but I think my overall point is fairly simple to understand.
It's very different than something like a better glam system or more features for easier searching in the market board.
Or say a search system for teleportation.

In regards to the Healer and Job design issue I think people kinda just need to accept that they're not gonna perform as well if they don't put effort into it.
I think most reasonable people can agree that someone who puts more effort into something should reap a higher reward.
The problem imo is that not only the FFXIV devs but also a lot of other devs spend too much time worrying about everyone performing at an equal level, but players are not equal.
It's okay that players perform worse if their only interest is the MSQ and other casual content.
And if their interest lies in harder content like Savage or even Ultimate then quite frankly if they can't play their Job at a competent level they're unlikely to be the type of person to put effort into learning mechanics and practicing to begin with.
So what exactly is the point of designing the optimal play of Jobs for these players?
They can still play and making things easy achieves nothing but make their numbers appear bigger on screen, but it in turn kills it in terms of fun and engagement for another significant portion of the players.
For the former it's all take and no give, while for the latter it's all give.

[pikalovr]

snip

the issue is that when you suggest any complexity it gets shot down cause "hardcore raiders" want it and it'll hurt the new player who's at level 50. (and should at least have a bare minimum understanding of the game and their kit but i digress). so people don't want complexity fine then make it just be a 1-2button rotation and open up the slots for oGCDs that can be added at higher levels only. but no that can't work either cause it dumbs down the rotation complexity (LMAO) even further. thats the issue there is no winning with people.

just like people can't use 2 braincells and some common sense to realize that, no MNK wouldn't get put down to a 2 button combo cause thankfully his rotation actually has nuance and each step of both combos has a reason to be used indepently. and SAM would just go to 3 buttons.

[RitsukoSonoda]

IMO one of the main issues is that the simplification of the game essentially removing most if not all actual FF RPG elements and mechanics from the game in the pursuit of making the game for "Everyone" has attracted hordes of ppl that want all the stuff without earning all the stuff so they can brag to their 5 friends on facebook that they have stuff in a popular online video game. The MSQ may be the main storyline of the game but it should also be the training path of the game to essentially make sure players understand mechanics while job quests educate players on how to make use of their kit.

[Wolwosh]

I think a few Tanks/DPS already take less effort to play than healers.
They have a few more dps buttons sure but they managed to make them feel more dull *idk how but they managed it*
Some jobs like Mch/Sum bore me the second I switch to them while Ast or Sch never make me feel thay way.
I wish they would have a bit more depth, but I think lots of jobs are going down the same route as the healers did or are already there.

[anhaato]

IMO one of the main issues is that the simplification of the game essentially removing most if not all actual FF RPG elements and mechanics from the game in the pursuit of making the game for "Everyone" has attracted hordes of ppl that want all the stuff without earning all the stuff so they can brag to their 5 friends on facebook that they have stuff in a popular online video game. The MSQ may be the main storyline of the game but it should also be the training path of the game to essentially make sure players understand mechanics while job quests educate players on how to make use of their kit.

The amount of people I've seen saying they're level 80+ and haven't done one single job quest and they're sooo backed up XD is beyond worrying. The game never forces you to learn your job so the idea that one might be forced to put in effort to be somewhat competent is genuinely offensive to these people.

[Raoabolic]

Look at the playerbase and introduce the concept of skillchaining into manabursting into doing substantial damage to dungeon bosses and tell me how it goes. I'm sure they will love it! :^)

[MintnHoney]

Look at the playerbase and introduce the concept of skillchaining into manabursting into doing substantial damage to dungeon bosses and tell me how it goes. I'm sure they will love it! :^)

I'm fine with watching 60% or more of the playerbase cry and throw temper tantrums when faced with their own ineptitude if it let's me have room to grow while I work through my own.

[Sililos]

It also goes both ways.

The easy solution is to have some jobs that are hard, and some jobs that are easy, best of both worlds.
The problem's there?
1: We will end up with a significant number of people playing the easy jobs with relatively few on the difficult, path of least resistance is something even hardcore raiders go with 'easiest path to get the job done'. I think you will find that many who want easier, dumbed down jobs are at the top of the game.
2: Whenever there are easy jobs, people like OP assume others are getting a free pass while they are choosing a job that 'requires thinking', and demand all jobs be as difficult as they think they should be. The "I want to be the only one able to play my job so i can be special" mindset, much like op is doing with this topic, well sorry, its a MMO, they HAVE to cater to everyone as that's how they make their money, if only a small number are able to play due to demanding the game be as difficult as they want, then the game will fail. Difficulty is fine when a games finding its feet, but ease of use for everyone is the standard, and a requirement once a game becomes large. (Especially when there are shareholders leeching literally every cent out of the game possible, it makes the game need too adapt too what will accommodate as many players as possible, difficulty does not do that.)

So yeah, sorry, despite how much OP and those like them want it, the game wont become more difficult, we just saw them dip their toes in the water with more difficulty with the Dragonsong reprise and they are now rapidly saying no, that was too much and they wont do that again.
If you want more difficult jobs, FFXIV may not be the game for you, its well past that stage of its life as a MMO, and people like OP wont allow there too be both easy and difficult jobs.

[MintnHoney]

we just saw them dip their toes in the water with more difficult with the Dragonsong reprise and they rapidly are saying no, that was too much and they wont do that again.

Where in the world did you get the idea that they were never going to do an Ultimate level fight again from?