What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Lunaxia]

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I mean, the game is based on real life, so you can't really divorce the two. The civilisations depicted are drawn from those that have existed in our world, and they more or less hold the same set of values that we do. It is perfectly fine to say "I want to see how they handle the depiction of a (continued) monarchy", though, and you don't need to defend it by tearing into the flaws of one system while glossing over the glaring problems of another. I certainly won't disagree with either of you about the persistence of class division and uneven distribution of wealth in democratic nations, but I find it a little amusing this is the argument you want to use against democracy when royalty is lavished with unlimited wealth and social status without peer purely on the premise of being born into a particular family. Not to mention the impenetrable circle of aristrocrats that typically surrounds them and dominates the upper echelons of society, making any hope of the social mobility you mention practically impossible. At least in a democratic society, the people have some control over who sits atop the pyramid and oversees their governance.

"Solus" may have improved the lines of the Garlean people - ultimately to make them pliable to his underlying cause and inflict untold suffering on other nations, I think it's worth remembering - but at the other end of that spectrum you have Zenos, the final heir, and the gamble you're actually taking every time you put power in someone's hands by virtue of their birth rather than by their suitability to lead.

Lastly, being British myself, I would also strongly disagree on that take with the British monarchy, but this is neither the time nor place for it, haha.

[Lunaxia]

From what we hear and read of Varis though if i’m not mistaken he’s referred to as a great and fair leader according to the garlean people. If we go based off of a country’s misdeeds then i’d consider the city state leaders just as abysmal in every single respect.

A great and fair leader (who employed censorship, hung dissenters or else ran them out of the country, and sought to deploy a deadly gas with the potential to kill thousands.) Apart from that, he's a thoroughly delightful chap.

I will say his ending was bizarrely grisly though, I was actually quite shocked they went that far, especially given the overall "lighter" tone of Endwalker. I almost felt sorry for him. I don't think anyone else has come close, except possibly Adeledji.

Agreed. I wouldn't mind finding out more about Garlemald's recent history, but for all the lauding I've seen of Varis, he was an absolutely abysmal leader in every single respect you can possibly imagine and really showed the problems inherent in a system where blood relation is seen as conferring the right to be in charge of a country. I can't see the people that have survived to see the rise and crash of a system of government like that in their lifetime rushing out to put the crown on whatever ninny with a drop of Emet-Selch's blood happens by.

I think by now the Garleans are probably more than a little scarred by their experiences, and the last thing they need is yet another would-be dictator proferring a benevolent hand and promising to guide them out of the darkness. I'd be having war flashbacks (quite literally.)

[Theodric]

Stripped of the Warrior of Light to solve all their problems, when it came to safeguarding their people from Primals how far does one think the City State leaders would go? How bloody would their hands be, I wonder?

It's easy look back with hindsight and criticise the actions of a character forced into an impossible position but I've noticed it often involves stripping away the nuance that exists - such as the innate disadvantage Garleans have by not being able to manipulate aether as easily as the other races as well as the very long history of being on the defensive. So I'm happy to forgive them for reacting less than perfectly when pushed into a corner.

That aside, it's also fiction - so I don't need in-game nations to be a lazy copy and paste of real world modern concerns and ideals. Especially when all it would take is a solar flare destroying the power grids to fling the entirety of the world into chaos and then what is considered 'moral' or 'necessary' would change rather swiftly.

[Lauront]

I mean, the game is based on real life, so you can't really divorce the two.

Only ever selectively and only to a degree, when it wants to make a specific point. Without getting into a drawn out discussion about political systems, which goes beyond the scope of this thread, suffice it to say, there are those of us who enjoy monarchies and associated systems as part of fantasy settings, and so tracking what happened to occur in the real world as a matter of specific historical scenarios does not feature particularly prominently in that respect. Part of why I find Amaurot so interesting is how unique its own specific form of technocratic (?) government is and how their society is structured around their unique traits.

The situation with Garlemald was a messy one, with Elidibus initially assuming executive control but then the writers chose to throw in the wildcard of Zenos, both of whom undermined Varis, in different ways. I think he was unfortunately the victim of those writing decisions, much like Elidibus himself was. Given that Garlemald hasn't got a mature monarchy and how their experience with one ended, I can understand why they might not be the best case to retain the system in its hereditary form, so I'll grant that, but all the stars aligned for it to implode into a civil war, going beyond its political system and including a Zenos-ex-machina, who foiled their plans, coupled with Fandaniel putting his own puppet's connections to use. I consider it a mistake to have written Garlemald purely as an instrument of the Ascians' agenda, especially when there are several aspects to the Garlean state that could've been wed to Venat's own ideology/viewpoints, however that could maybe be attributed to shifting or not yet formulated plans on the writers' part.

"Forging ahead", a key thing I'd like them to focus on is how it plans to position itself to deal with neighbours who may still be hostile after the empire's fall, including some of which have always been nipping at its heels until they ended up being subdued by it, as well as those provinces which may remain loyal to it in some respect and not want a return of old regimes (much as with the Bozja plotline.)

[KizuyaKatogami]

A great and fair leader (who employed censorship, hung dissenters or else ran them out of the country, and sought to deploy a deadly gas with the potential to kill thousands.) Apart from that, he's a thoroughly delightful chap.

I will say his ending was bizarrely grisly though, I was actually quite shocked they went that far, especially given the overall "lighter" tone of Endwalker. I almost felt sorry for him. I don't think anyone else has come close, except possibly Adeledji.



I think by now the Garleans are probably more than a little scarred by their experiences, and the last thing they need is yet another would-be dictator proferring a benevolent hand and promising to guide them out of the darkness. I'd be having war flashbacks (quite literally.)

And we have a dictator who committed mass genocide against a group of creatures to steal their land, a “leader” who still allows slavery in her city to this day, and a “leader” who bends to the will of forest sprites and allows them to have their way and turns a blind eye to the mass racism happening to her people resulting in the rape and hanging and murder of many. The city state leaders are quite literally as bad as him yet he’s the only one to face repercussions despite in the end him just doing what’s best for his people and doing unto others what was done to him. Also…are we just going to ignore the fact uldah basically gassed an entire population and turned them into zombies?

[MikkoAkure]

Eh, considering he killed not only all of the scions but also the WoL in the other timeline he accomplished more than even the likes of Emet selch or any of the ascians really have done during the main course of the game. Also again, in the whole restarting the war thing none of this would’ve happened if they hadn’t been invaded. All he was doing what was done unto their people constantly. If he treats his people fairly i don’t see much of an issue with it. Considering we have city states where slavery is legal, racism is abundant, and genocide to claim land is fine.

Ala Mhigo was invaded and the war restarted because a band of terrorists put on Eorzean Alliance uniforms and attacked a Garlean outpost, following it up with summoning Shinryu. The Eorzean Alliance saw no way out of it other than to continue and besides, at this point all of Eorzea had spent the past 15 years being threatened by Garlemald and had survived 3 failed invasion attempts with Garlean soldiers still to this day present in Eorzean territory. Ala Mhigo wasn't a central part of Garlean territory and it was a 1500 year old sovereign state that wasn't even on Ilsabard, was not a target of Garlean revanchism, and had absolutely no history with the Garlean people at all.

Varis purged a dissenting political party because they said "maybe we shouldn't conquer and destroy people who had nothing to do with our original homeland". When they started gathering together with arms because he was killing them, he gassed them. Part of the point of that plotline, besides reintroducing the gas to people who didn't do SB sidequests, was to show that he's not a good person even to his own people. The Garleans had nothing to do with Aldenard and Othard and a sizeable chunk of the Garlean population agreed with that but Varis destroyed them so that he could continue his insane effort to take over the world and trigger Calamity after Calamity, the first of which ended up destroying Garlemald anyway in 8UC.

Between the civil war Varis led trying to take the throne that caused more chaos than Emet-Selch had hoped and his purge of the Populares, the Garleans probably ended up killing more of their own than any single foreign army had caused. Then his son, who by Varis' own admission had no business being in line for the throne, repossessed his body and ended up killing him and completely obliterated the rest of the country.

What a legacy.

[DevonEllwood]

I have a couple questions, which is funny because Endwalker was supposed to explain these things. How long was the time between the second sacrifice (to seed life) and the sundering? It would have have to be a significant amount of time otherwise there would be nothing to sustain the sundered. There had to at least be some plants they could eat.

My other question would be why do people think the Ancients were going back to what they had before? This doesn't seem plausible for one, and yes some expressed that want, as you would after any disaster. But the only plan we are given is by Hyth in that they would pick up where they left off (resume stewardship), as you would after a disaster. After the calamity, "going back to how it was" isn't even possible, so why is this constantly an argument people make for EW "good lessons"? Are we not supposed to rebuild our lives and do our best to return to normal? Are we not allowed to lament about the good times?

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Brinne:
"And because Venat is written to be an admirable figure to the player first and foremost, there's no room to provide context as to why certain options are so terrifying to her as to be emotionally implausible to her as an action. She's terrified of the Plenty. Why? Why did this scare her so much more than the descriptions of the other Dead Ends? What has happened in her life to make her so utterly petrified of a destruction revolving around peaceful stagnation as opposed to causing the violent deaths of everyone around her?"
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And this is why I think you were on to something when you mentioned Hermes and Venat possibly have been the same character. I remember another statement by Yoshida that he didn't originally plan for Venat to by Hydaelyn.
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And again with another quote from Brinne:
"Well, it's because to a majority of players, the most important question isn't how Venat and Emet treated each other. It's how both Venat and Emet treat the player. Particularly as of Endwalker, both Venat and Emet like and support the player, therefore, we like both! Easy peasy."
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This is why G'raha and Horseman were so well liked. They were overtly nice to the player character. It's the same reason why Hydaelyn isn't an antagonist; she was never antagonistic to the player character.

I'm catching up on the thread and just saw the Zepla video, and wow, what a disappointment. "That troll succeeded". It's 500 pages. I love how uncomfortable she looked when she pointed out the thread. She didn't even look inside. It reminded me of the Bilbo Baggins meme with the ring; she looked like she really wanted to know, but didn't dare open it up on stream. That's great that Zepla finds that endwalker helps her with her current situation, but she's dismissing 500 posts as "trolling" when people have poured out their lives about depression, disabilities, and abusive parents. I don't expect anyone to read 500 pages, but all it takes is one small post to ask why people feel why that many pages is necessary.

I'm kind of tired that all people see the forums as is trolling. It's the one place people can vent. It's the one place people can complain. It's the one place where these complaints reached the developers to fix living dead after 6 years.
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Xirean:
"I have a question about opinions on the Scions. Is the displeasure with the fanboy personality of G'raha because people got used to the Exarch persona or because people just don't like fanboy in general? Would people feel better or less frustrated with this aspect if it were explained/explored more how G'raha actually works with the dual memories/soul thing?"
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I don't like fanboys. I didn't like horsefart either. He also still liked us as a two bit adventurer. G'raha Tia liked us, but didn't become a fanboy until reading about us later. I see the quality as negative, which is why I'm okay with Zenos.

And I'm caught up with the thread. To be honest I skimmed a lot of it since there was a big chunk about The Cat. I'm leaving it all in though, especially the Zepla bit even though that ship has sailed. I just read the forums at work so all I can do is sum everything up and post it all in one go. Too lazy to hunt down individual posts.

[CrownySuccubus]

I…already said who it was. Again can’t get any more specific outright specifically naming names which i don’t like to do considering how bendable the tos is, but by saying regulars in this thread including myself idk how else to say it.

Pretty sure it's not against TOS to quote someone. Especially when you told me "it's easy" to find. Well,. I legit looked, and I didn't know what you were talking about. Even Brinne isn't sure who you're talking about. But if we're both gonna end this line of conversation confused, then that's fine, I guess.

I don't think even you know what argument you're trying to make at this point.

I'm pretty sure I was rather clear. Do you know what "Weasel Words" are, and why they're a bad way to argue?

----

Incidentally, I apparently need to tick "Democaracy" off the bingo card too.

[Lunaxia]

The problem with the "it's just fiction" justification is that it can be applied to just about every argument in the story, and runs the risk of rendering all discussion rather pointless. The world of FFXIV shares our morality (or thereabouts) and beliefs, and I'd rather the game acknowledge and deal with questionable scenarios when they arise rather than brushing off certain acts whilst condemning others because "it makes for a cool fantasy story."

And we have a dictator who committed mass genocide against a group of creatures to steal their land, a “leader” who still allows slavery in her city to this day, and a “leader” who bends to the will of forest sprites and allows them to have their way and turns a blind eye to the mass racism happening to her people resulting in the rape and hanging and murder of many. The city state leaders are quite literally as bad as him yet he’s the only one to face repercussions despite in the end him just doing what’s best for his people and doing unto others what was done to him. Also…are we just going to ignore the fact uldah basically gassed an entire population and turned them into zombies?

I'll give you Sil'dih, though we are talking about a city state that existed hundreds of years ago and has little to do with Ul'dah in the present. But you're grossly exaggerating the reality of the other city states in an attempt to justify what the Garleans did. I can't really take you seriously when you're trying to make out the Eorzean Alliance are "just as bad" when Garlemald has continually sought the conquest and subjugation of other nations for its own glory and brought the racism, rape, genocide and slavery you mentioned to the countless provinces under its control.

Varis was dealt a rough hand when it came to his family, for sure, but after a certain point it cannot be used to justify the choices he made.

[aveyond-dreams]

I think by now the Garleans are probably more than a little scarred by their experiences, and the last thing they need is yet another would-be dictator proferring a benevolent hand and promising to guide them out of the darkness. I'd be having war flashbacks (quite literally.)

I'd rather trust a Larsa than a faceless and leaderless senate made up of people who were quite happily towing the line of the previous regime, which is to say nothing of the other problems to which democracies/republics are prone. The simple fact of the matter is that a better story could have been told by fleshing out and devoting more time to members of the royal family and other high ranking officials in Garlemald. Maybe then they'd have a better ending than being beamed up to the Moon.

With Garlemald declawed, coupled with the resolution of the Ancients' storyline, FFXIV's world becomes more boring with each patch. There's hardly anything left of interest left on the Source that the current writing direction is willing to touch - because Bozja was apparently too dark and Ivalice lore was too complex for the playerbase to understand. Instead we get regime change driven by a 16 year old elf in country after country. As a fan of fantasy and medieval settings, all this is just making me less and less interested in a world I used to be a lot more invested in.

The failings in FFXIV's worldbuilding is what is also serving to drive me full force into the arms of FFXVI, which has a far more balanced platter of nations. A duchy, two kingdoms, one holy theocratic empire, and one republic - important to note because the more republics you have the less unique they become. In the monarchies or "dictatorships" as they've been decried at least you have the chance to get a more colorful cast of characters to root for. Am I really supposed to be excited about a senate or parliament whose members are never on screen? Multiplied by 3 in the case of FFXIV? Give me a break.

The only time in media where I've seen a "democracy" have a compelling cast/underlying plot was in Legend of the Galactic Heroes. FFXIV wouldn't dare paint its new cookie cutter regimes in the same light that the Alliance was depicted in that series. Even then, there was usually a better story to consume on the Imperial side. With FFXIV's empire gone along with many other plot elements that people enjoyed, all that is left is a literal Void.