The absolute state of Frontlines

[EchoYggdrasil]

and don't use Guard.

You can't Guard against a Bahamut after it's been summoned and is doing its initial hit. Combine that with four of them dropping on you at once and it just instantly kills you, giving the Summoner easy High, and making it easier to do it next time for them.

Just got out of a match where there were at least 15 Summoners on the enemy teams combined, and they dropped 6-8 Bahamuts on the ice and nuked my entire team down quickly.

Ridiculous.

[Gserpent]

You can't Guard against a Bahamut after it's been summoned and is doing its initial hit. Combine that with four of them dropping on you at once and it just instantly kills you, giving the Summoner easy High, and making it easier to do it next time for them.

Just got out of a match where there were at least 15 Summoners on the enemy teams combined, and they dropped 6-8 Bahamuts on the ice and nuked my entire team down quickly.

Ridiculous.

It's so obvious when and where they will be throwing out Bahamut. Guard in advance or just don't be there. Seriously, it's not hard.

[gioroggia]

It's so obvious when and where they will be throwing out Bahamut. Guard in advance or just don't be there. Seriously, it's not hard.

By all means, do that. Use your guard when you *think* three of the many summoners on the other side will cast bahamut. You will survive, you will be without guard, and most of your teammates will be dead around you anyway.

I can't remember the last time I died to a bahamut myself, but that doesn't stop summoners from wrecking my entire team or forcing me to retreat. That doesn't stop summoners from getting to battle high 5 very, very quickly due to the very large AOE and ease of use of their LB. That doesn't stop summoners from filling up the top damage slots on most games. That doesn't stop the team with the most summoners from having a cheap, low-skill advantage.

It is what it is, and it's pointless to discuss it. Just look at the number of summoners and how they place at the end of each FL match.

[Gserpent]

By all means, do that. Use your guard when you *think* three of the many summoners on the other side will cast bahamut. You will survive, you will be without guard, and most of your teammates will be dead around you anyway.

I can't remember the last time I died to a bahamut myself, but that doesn't stop summoners from wrecking my entire team or forcing me to retreat. That doesn't stop summoners from getting to battle high 5 very, very quickly due to the very large AOE and ease of use of their LB. That doesn't stop summoners from filling up the top damage slots on most games. That doesn't stop the team with the most summoners from having a cheap, low-skill advantage.

It is what it is, and it's pointless to discuss it. Just look at the number of summoners and how they place at the end of each FL match.

And yet JP doesn't have an issue dealing with them. SMN is clearly not a big deal, it's just people are trash.

[gioroggia]

And yet JP doesn't have an issue dealing with them. SMN is clearly not a big deal, it's just people are trash.

You can say "people are trash" as many times as you want but it won't change the nature of frontlines. People will still be "trash", as you say it, and balance has to take into consideration how the game is actually played and how that in turn affects the gameplay. A hypothetical counter which people never use or which creates other types of problems (such as spreading out) doesn't mean much. That is why Summoners still dominate most matches.

I do wonder why Summoners supposedly do not dominate in Japan's FL, but over here that does happen and there is no sign that it will change.

[Gserpent]

You can say "people are trash" as many times as you want but it won't change the nature of frontlines. People will still be "trash", as you say it, and balance has to take into consideration how the game is actually played and how that in turn affects the gameplay. A hypothetical counter which people never use or which creates other types of problems (such as spreading out) doesn't mean much. That is why Summoners still dominate most matches.

I do wonder why Summoners supposedly do not dominate in Japan's FL, but over here that does happen and there is no sign that it will change.

That's the thing though - it's not unbalanced. It's fine. The proper change here is *no change at all.* The issue is a player skill and knowledge issue, *not a balance issue.*

You do not ever, *ever* design or balance a competitive game around the majority of (typically very, very bad) players. You balance it around the very best, and the impacts of those changes trickle down to the lower tiers of player. FL isn't some kind of sweaty hardcore esports game and isn't intended to be, but it's still a competitive game and should still be tuned like one.

SMN does not need any changes whatsoever, beyond the likely *systemic* changes we can expect - higher DR on melee and tanks, longer LB charge times, and so on. You said yourself that you don't die to SMN/Megaflare spamming, so that *very obviously* means that it's something that doesn't need adjustment - it needs players to stop playing like complete garbage.

[gioroggia]

That's the thing though - it's not unbalanced. It's fine. The proper change here is *no change at all.* The issue is a player skill and knowledge issue, *not a balance issue.*

You do not ever, *ever* design or balance a competitive game around the majority of (typically very, very bad) players. You balance it around the very best, and the impacts of those changes trickle down to the lower tiers of player. FL isn't some kind of sweaty hardcore esports game and isn't intended to be, but it's still a competitive game and should still be tuned like one.

SMN does not need any changes whatsoever, beyond the likely *systemic* changes we can expect - higher DR on melee and tanks, longer LB charge times, and so on. You said yourself that you don't die to SMN/Megaflare spamming, so that *very obviously* means that it's something that doesn't need adjustment - it needs players to stop playing like complete garbage.

Hey, buddy, not a single FL match is played solely by the "very best". Note that you are referring to a hypothetical, nonexistent state of the game where people are much better than they actually are, and founding your argument upon what you THINK would happen if the game were that way. Not only are you relying on a state of the world that does not exist, but you are also making weak, unverifiable claims about it. That makes for a very flimsy argument.

On the other hand, you can join any FL game and most of the time summoners will occupy most if not all of the top-damage spots and will be the first to reach Battle High V. That is actual, solid evidence of the imbalance exists in the state of the game as it is, regardless of how you believe it would be in your hypothetical, nonexistent world.

The image is of course just anedoctal evidence, but it is a pattern we are all too familiar with.

[Divinemights]

By all means, do that. Use your guard when you *think* three of the many summoners on the other side will cast bahamut. You will survive, you will be without guard, and most of your teammates will be dead around you anyway.

I can't remember the last time I died to a bahamut myself, but that doesn't stop summoners from wrecking my entire team or forcing me to retreat. That doesn't stop summoners from getting to battle high 5 very, very quickly due to the very large AOE and ease of use of their LB. That doesn't stop summoners from filling up the top damage slots on most games. That doesn't stop the team with the most summoners from having a cheap, low-skill advantage.

It is what it is, and it's pointless to discuss it. Just look at the number of summoners and how they place at the end of each FL match.

Sorry, I can't feel your pain
The most of summoners in my game either get baited and killed by me at a remote location at Shattered or dead by focus fire because I place focus countdown on them.
Any brave one charge towards me with Crimson Cyclone will get stunned then got sent to in middle of my team to get focus fired.
There are few can reach BH5 but they are veterans, and yea, veterans are veterans

[gioroggia]

Sorry, I can't feel your pain
The most of summoners in my game either get baited and killed by me at a remote location at Shattered or dead by focus fire because I place focus countdown on them.
Any brave one charge towards me with Crimson Cyclone will get stunned then got sent to in middle of my team to get focus fired.
There are few can reach BH5 but they are veterans, and yea, veterans are veterans

But what you are saying here applies to any job. It's not a weakness of summoners which somehow compensates for the elements that are unbalanced in FL.

[Divinemights]

But what you are saying here applies to any job. It's not a weakness of summoners which somehow compensates for the elements that are unbalanced in FL.

That is the point, Summoner is just one of the job can be killed by same method, nothing more.
As long as someone is doing focus target marking.
As I said earlier, Summoner is an overate job manifesting from NA's unique Horde Stampede playstyle.
NA players in general travel together and attack together in group and often tunnel vision to a target with low HP and ignored where they stand.
This strategy works until 6.1 introduced coordinated killer combo.
Beside Summoner stacking, the typical one is DRK charge in with Eventide, Salten Earth, then Salt and Darkness and wait for Afflatus Purgation

Another issue is not a lot NA players are doing focus target marking in which it is a requirement to win the Frontline.
If you pay attention, a lot of NA summoners will start with Crimson Charge then use Guard to make their way out freely because they know opposite team has no one mark them.
There are many jobs can break the Guard and imagine Summoner's Guard got break in middle of enemy.
People need to learn instead of complain assuming they knows everything.