It's clear SE doesn't care and Samurai will not be reverted in 6.2

[Liam_Harper]

So my advice to SAM mains is this: don't force yourselves to play SAM if you just cannot agree to the changes. But if you're going to critique it, you're also going to have to accept that people might like the change in spite of what you think.

You cannot design a game like that. You can't just build a job, develop a fanbase who love the identity and gameplay it offers, then randomly take a dump on them and toss them out the window on a whim. Telling SAM mains to stop playing their job if they don't like the random changes is crazy.

Peoples preferences vary. Someone out there is going to like almost any change you can think of. That's besides the point, because you could make any random tweak you liked and someone would praise it. It's not an indicator of good design.
There are about 20 jobs, which means they can and should offer a variety of different playstyles for each player. They don't need to alter the core identity or target audience. It literally doesn't matter if you, as an individual player like it. It matters what the overall SAM fans like. Because that's who you should design each job for. Create 20 individual playstyles, then fine tune each to be the best experience for that specific playerbase.

In this ideal design, everyone can find those few jobs that match their preferences and engage with them fully and love them. However, what the developers are trying to do is create a game where everyone can play nearly all of the jobs, which results in all of them being playable in a lukewarm way, but none of them being really focused on the individual preferences.

[Ransu]

I do believe that the damage is supposed to be roughly the same. Not having to do Kaiten also means being able to do more Shinten, and that keeps me busy. When I played SAM after the changes, I had heard about all the backlash and feared what the job had become. But my personal testing found that the change feels quite good. I know that people disagree, but the important question is whether people disagree whether because the change is bad, or because they don't want to change to a new play style. Imagine how I feel then, as a MNK for nearly a decade, when greased lightning was removed, and then MNK was changed to using Master's Gauge. Of course there are MNKs who hate what the job is like now, I'm simply not one of them. So my advice to SAM mains is this: don't force yourselves to play SAM if you just cannot agree to the changes. But if you're going to critique it, you're also going to have to accept that people might like the change in spite of what you think.

More shinten is literally one of the core problems....We're just spamming it and its something the devs themselves said back during SB they didn't want us doing which is why they removed hagakure initially in ShB.

The overall damage is 3% less than prior to 6.1 and gekko/kasha doing nearly as much damage as a midare doesn't feel good, especially when the auto crits are basically doing the same damage as a normal hit for midare prior to 6.1. Its not JUST the removal of kaiten, its the overall feel. The build up of big damage is gone, the kenki management is gone, its just....boring now. There's no big hits anymore and its just a boring spam of shinten. Why do we even have a kenki gauge still? I can almost guarantee gyoten is going to have its damage removed and placed on some stupid charged skill in a later update to further make kenki useless because currently right now instead of kaiten we're using gyoten in the rotation.

This does not seem right. You had to waste time Kaitening in front of every iaijutsu, and you have to use up kenki for Shinten. Calling kenki a pointless resource is a gross exaggeration.

Shinten is being used in the exact same spots kaiten was being used in the large majority of the time with gyoten mixed in to get rid of excess kenki, especially during the opener after popping ishikoten. If you're not doing that then you're holding on to too much kenki. So yes, the APM is nearly identical.

[Quor]

Shinten is being used in the exact same spots kaiten was being used in the large majority of the time with gyoten mixed in to get rid of excess kenki, especially during the opener after popping ishikoten. If you're not doing that then you're holding on to too much kenki. So yes, the APM is nearly identical.

To be exact, it's approximately 1 APM less in the post-6.1 world than it was in 6.0-6.08, which in-turn was about 1 APM less than it was in ShB. SAM's are literally pressing one less button per minute now due to the Kaiten change. That might be a big deal if we were only pressing maybe 30 buttons a minute, but SAM APM as of 6.08 was around the 45-46 mark iirc, and now we're around the 44-45 mark. Which, functionally, amounts to nothing.

[Kaseladen]

I'm chiming in to say that I much prefer the new SAM compared to the old one. Kaiten just felt like 1 button too many compared to how SAM plays now. My main is MNK... And MNK is the king of having useless abilities, lol. So, to me, removing a button press that doesn't really feel great is better than having that button constantly impeding the way it plays. The devs could just do nothing or do the wrong thing, which is what happened with MNK's Anatman and Six-Sided Star.

I've been following your comments, and this is the one that broke me.
You're an idiot

[MellowMink]

The director should play as a Hrothgar Samurai for a while so he can better understand multiple sets of pressing player concerns and see how not prioritizing related issues leaves bad impressions. And as all the healers too, honestly. Why only focus on Black Mage?

[Kolsykol]

DRG NIN MNK are next in line to get auto crit.

I'd at least be in favor of making Chakra more predictable.
I don't think it's good design when you end up in random situations where you lose part of your resource.
Which is a thing with Chakra, there are situations where you will overcap unless you wanna clip gcd's.

[Ceridwen]

If you like more shinten spam - I don't even have words. That's possibly a worse take than the usual trollish 'deal with it.'

Kaiten was a LOVELY ability. It looked great, it felt good. There are a lot of abilities, in every class, that don't. That one did. But God, PLEASE don't let this game go to that abysmal level of easy-mode play. One ability spam is a nightmare. Just truly, deeply depressing.

[Mahimahi]

The change is bad, it's an objective fact. No more synergy with four classes that buff crit (as well as a loss of DPS for them), as well as SAM initially losing 3% of its overall DPS after 6.1. The changes were not well thought out and rushed; was proven with the 6.11 band-aid changes that were in regards to a meme rotation in Yukikaze > Hagakure > Shinten spam doing similar numbers to the devs' projections in 6.1. I don't know how long you've played the class, but if you cannot notice the awkward pauses in your rotation where Kaiten used to be in between where Shinten is spammed, then it shows you aren't experienced on SAM (aka your personal testing amounts from little to nothing). The class does not feel good; your being a MNK main lends little credence to your opinion, sorry to say.

Why would there be an awkward pause where Kaiten used to be? You just perform a Shinten in that gap. I certainly had to practice a new rotation, but what I did was to replace my Kaiten button with my Shinten button, and every time I did a 'Kaiten' in front of Iaijutsu I did a Shinten, which was effectively what I wanted until the muscle memory grew back.

MNK and SAM wear the same left and right side gear, so yes I was quite able to test the job with quite nice gear lol. I apologize in advance, but saying that you main <job> means that you have no say in how SAM is supposed to be like is just arrogance.

[Mahimahi]

I've played this job for years now, why should I be the one moving on because SE is trying to (supposedly) make it more appealing to others at the expense of a huge chunk of long term SAM mains? It's a philosophy I just cannot agree with.
I went ahead and tried these changes with an open mind, but ended up disliking everything about it. The thing is, we didn't really have to adapt to a new playstyle, it's literally the same thing except with resource management massively dumbed down, numbers that don't feel as good, and less synergy with other jobs. Yeah Shinten keeps busy, but I was happier when I didn't have to mash the same button and had to manage Kenki a little bit. That kinda depth that makes you feel like there's more to a job than crude Shinten spam lol, its a side of SAM I used to like they simply took away. So I feel it's right to go and voice my discontent in hope for a swift revert in this case.

I smiled a little at this. I've played MNK since ARR and every day someone complained about how unsynergistic MNK was in raiding. Then one fine day there was Stormblood. I was there when everyone chortled about all MNKs moving to SAM... and then SAM became the new 'MNK selfish DPS', and MNK basically was preferred over SAM just because of Brotherhood. Have you seen the MNK changes? People laugh at MCH changes, but no really, in comparison to MNK changes? Anyone remember elemental tackles?

I stuck to MNK because at the end of the day, I was more interested in the core job identity and I was willing to train myself to adapt to whatever changes the job was given. The closest I came to dropping the job was the removal of greased lightning, after I shared in everyone's joy at seeing GL4 in the ShB job actions trailer.

So yes, moving on is a good idea when your vision != the devs' vision. It isn't a petty thing to do, it also informs the devs when job usage drops like a stone and people send negative feedback.

[Mahimahi]

Are you insinuating the APM is down just because an oGCD doesn't have to be used before specific GCD skills? You "waste time" shinten-ing before any other GCD the same as you'd do for kaiten only now you don't have to think about saving resources for more intelligent application, you just fire and forget.

I don't know why it "doesn't seem right." There's extra kenki from what would have gone to kaiten that still needs spending so of course apm would remain similar.

No, my belief that APM should be higher now, since you can perform 2 Shintens for every weaponskill and you don't have to save for Kaiten, so you should have the kenki for it. I would hardly call using Kaiten intelligent application- it's obvious you would save kenki for Kaiten over performing a Shinten. Now that Kaiten's buff is rolled into other areas to try to make up the potency loss, naturally you try to do Shinten as much as possible but more importantly as soon as possible, since there is no advantage to saving a full before spamming it.