It's clear SE doesn't care and Samurai will not be reverted in 6.2

[Mahimahi]

The APM without kaiten is nearly identical and the new rotation replaced kaiten with gyoten. Nothing changed in terms of APM, but everything changed in terms of interesting game design. Kenki is a pointless resource now.

This does not seem right. You had to waste time Kaitening in front of every iaijutsu, and you have to use up kenki for Shinten. Calling kenki a pointless resource is a gross exaggeration.

[ShanaShirayuki]

I do believe that the damage is supposed to be roughly the same. Not having to do Kaiten also means being able to do more Shinten, and that keeps me busy. When I played SAM after the changes, I had heard about all the backlash and feared what the job had become. But my personal testing found that the change feels quite good. I know that people disagree, but the important question is whether people disagree whether because the change is bad, or because they don't want to change to a new play style. Imagine how I feel then, as a MNK for nearly a decade, when greased lightning was removed, and then MNK was changed to using Master's Gauge. Of course there are MNKs who hate what the job is like now, I'm simply not one of them. So my advice to SAM mains is this: don't force yourselves to play SAM if you just cannot agree to the changes. But if you're going to critique it, you're also going to have to accept that people might like the change in spite of what you think.

The change is bad, it's an objective fact. No more synergy with four classes that buff crit (as well as a loss of DPS for them), as well as SAM initially losing 3% of its overall DPS after 6.1. The changes were not well thought out and rushed; was proven with the 6.11 band-aid changes that were in regards to a meme rotation in Yukikaze > Hagakure > Shinten spam doing similar numbers to the devs' projections in 6.1. I don't know how long you've played the class, but if you cannot notice the awkward pauses in your rotation where Kaiten used to be in between where Shinten is spammed, then it shows you aren't experienced on SAM (aka your personal testing amounts from little to nothing). The class does not feel good; your being a MNK main lends little credence to your opinion, sorry to say.

[Hezhi]

I do believe that the damage is supposed to be roughly the same. Not having to do Kaiten also means being able to do more Shinten, and that keeps me busy. When I played SAM after the changes, I had heard about all the backlash and feared what the job had become. But my personal testing found that the change feels quite good. I know that people disagree, but the important question is whether people disagree whether because the change is bad, or because they don't want to change to a new play style. Imagine how I feel then, as a MNK for nearly a decade, when greased lightning was removed, and then MNK was changed to using Master's Gauge. Of course there are MNKs who hate what the job is like now, I'm simply not one of them. So my advice to SAM mains is this: don't force yourselves to play SAM if you just cannot agree to the changes. But if you're going to critique it, you're also going to have to accept that people might like the change in spite of what you think.

I've played this job for years now, why should I be the one moving on because SE is trying to (supposedly) make it more appealing to others at the expense of a huge chunk of long term SAM mains? It's a philosophy I just cannot agree with.
I went ahead and tried these changes with an open mind, but ended up disliking everything about it. The thing is, we didn't really have to adapt to a new playstyle, it's literally the same thing except with resource management massively dumbed down, numbers that don't feel as good, and less synergy with other jobs. Yeah Shinten keeps busy, but I was happier when I didn't have to mash the same button and had to manage Kenki a little bit. That kinda depth that makes you feel like there's more to a job than crude Shinten spam lol, its a side of SAM I used to like they simply took away. So I feel it's right to go and voice my discontent in hope for a swift revert in this case.

[SaberMaxwell]

This does not seem right. You had to waste time Kaitening in front of every iaijutsu, and you have to use up kenki for Shinten. Calling kenki a pointless resource is a gross exaggeration.

Are you insinuating the APM is down just because an oGCD doesn't have to be used before specific GCD skills? You "waste time" shinten-ing before any other GCD the same as you'd do for kaiten only now you don't have to think about saving resources for more intelligent application, you just fire and forget.

I don't know why it "doesn't seem right." There's extra kenki from what would have gone to kaiten that still needs spending so of course apm would remain similar.

[Reese_Clairdale]

This does not seem right. You had to waste time Kaitening in front of every iaijutsu, and you have to use up kenki for Shinten. Calling kenki a pointless resource is a gross exaggeration.

Gauges should be a way to implement unique gameplay to each job that goes beyond following the fixed rotation or cooldown priority.

For SAM, Kaiten was a reward for proper gauge balance. "Don't keep too much, and also don't be empty at the wrong time." It's something that became almost automatic and subconscious with practice, but satisfying nevertheless. The punishment for not managing the Kenki gauge properly was heavily reduced potency on your most powerful skills. Psychologically this trained you to be more conscious of button mashing habits. Also in situations where you had a little extra gauge, it could still be good to save it for a couple seconds until everyone's group buffs come off cooldown. As a reward for your mental discipline and skillful balance, you gain more damage.

Now, every Kaiten you would have used is 4/5ths of a Shinten or x2 Gyoten. Straight oGCD damage ability usage has been pushed beyond absurd levels. Before 6.1, the amount of Shinten mashing had already reached extremely high levels. If we go back in time to Shadowbringers, one of the objectives of the Hagakure nerf was to bring oGCD spam down to a reasonable amount and solidify Midare as the primary 3 Sen spender.

the important question is whether people disagree whether because the change is bad, or because they don't want to change to a new play style.

Skills were removed or nerfed, only to have the more mundane skills buffed and spammed more often. There's absolutely nothing new here. It feels like we're all the way back to Stormblood's Hagakure meta + Skillspeed meld levels of spam, but without the constant balancing act to keep us awake. If anything, the gameplay is a more degenerated version of something that is already 5 years outdated. The changes aren't just subjectively offensive, they are objectively, demonstrably unhealthy for SAM's identity.

So no, it's not an exaggeration in any sense of the word. Nuance is gone. Kenki is now just Shinten juice. You empty the gauge without a second thought because punishment for spamming has been eliminated. I would even say that you get punished for not hammering the Shinten button in most situations; The value of certain group buffs has been nullified, Iaijutsu damage has been flattened, and you can easily overcap via your next Ikishoten if you don't.

[KurenXIV]

I know that people disagree, but the important question is whether people disagree whether because the change is bad, or because they don't want to change to a new play style.

Having played SAM since launch I and many others have adjusted to new rotations with each expansion as the kit was expansed upon. Kaiten for the vast majority of players was a huge part of what made SAM fun and made the job fantasy feel just right. It's not that we "don't want to change to a new play style", it's that we aren't having fun with the new play style. When you go from fun to not fun then the question becomes "why am I playing SAM" and if you can't find another job to have fun with you will ask "why am I even playing at all?"

Objectively speaking, is SAM fine? Sure. It does slightly less damage now and on paper it's a perfectly functional job.

Does that make it fun? No. What we had was fun and what we had is what the vast majority preferred.

Let's say for argument sake you have 75% of the SAM player base that loved playing SAM in 6.08 and before. Let's say then there's 25% who are OK with it but want it to change in the ways it was changed in 6.1 Now lets say after the change 50% of the 75% just drop the job and the number of players playing the job simply never recover. Is it safe to say at that point the change was bad? I'd say so.

[TankHunter678]

I do believe that the damage is supposed to be roughly the same. Not having to do Kaiten also means being able to do more Shinten, and that keeps me busy. When I played SAM after the changes, I had heard about all the backlash and feared what the job had become. But my personal testing found that the change feels quite good. I know that people disagree, but the important question is whether people disagree whether because the change is bad, or because they don't want to change to a new play style. Imagine how I feel then, as a MNK for nearly a decade, when greased lightning was removed, and then MNK was changed to using Master's Gauge. Of course there are MNKs who hate what the job is like now, I'm simply not one of them. So my advice to SAM mains is this: don't force yourselves to play SAM if you just cannot agree to the changes. But if you're going to critique it, you're also going to have to accept that people might like the change in spite of what you think.

The damage is considerably nerfed, it also revived the playstyle that completely goes against SAM's core design to the point that when it showed up back in Stormblood they nerfed it out of existence: where outside of every 1 minute for your dot and 2 minutes for your burst window all sen is best consumed by Hagakure to turn into Kenki for Shinten spam. Which is why they removed Hagakure in the first place back in Shadowbringers, which got returned in a nerfed form because as it turns out when you design a class around something removing that something causes tremendous damage.

In this case the change is bad, really bad, it completely goes against core class design and tears apart how the class is conceptually supposed to function.

[xAFROx]

I do believe that the damage is supposed to be roughly the same. Not having to do Kaiten also means being able to do more Shinten, and that keeps me busy. When I played SAM after the changes, I had heard about all the backlash and feared what the job had become. But my personal testing found that the change feels quite good. I know that people disagree, but the important question is whether people disagree whether because the change is bad, or because they don't want to change to a new play style. Imagine how I feel then, as a MNK for nearly a decade, when greased lightning was removed, and then MNK was changed to using Master's Gauge. Of course there are MNKs who hate what the job is like now, I'm simply not one of them. So my advice to SAM mains is this: don't force yourselves to play SAM if you just cannot agree to the changes. But if you're going to critique it, you're also going to have to accept that people might like the change in spite of what you think.

Another person telling us to get over it and take what we've been given? Why? Because similar things happened to MNK? A lot people didn't like the changes to MNK, sure, but here's the difference: one was an overhaul, the other was like messing up a jenga tower.

Monk got hit with the streamline plan while SAM they just so slightly plucked a piece out from under it and expected it to be exactly the way to go when in reality the whole thing suddenly falls apart because of it.

I'm not gonna go into all the reasons why this is--while valid--a bad take overall assessing the job in question. Plenty of others are already saying why and to be the 5th person saying so would just be redundant.

I'm not a Monk main either, I only leveled it because it shared gear with SAM, so my enjoyment of it throughout the iterations is nearly indifferent, despite the jarring difference when something changed. You and everyone who loved previous versions have my condolences, and if you all really preferred one of those, I hope you all tried fighting for it as much as we SAMs are trying to fight for ours.

[CelestiCer]

...But if you're going to critique it, you're also going to have to accept that people might like the change in spite of what you think.

Essentially these changes are for people who like...

• Hamburgers without the burger
• Cars without wheels
• Spaghetti without the Spaghetti sauce
• Sushi without rice or fish
• Beach without sand
• Fried Rice without MSG
• Pizza with just the dough, nothing else
• Skyscrapers without elevators
• Playing FFXIV with a broken monitor
• Raiding party without that 1 suicidal greeder
• Rollercoaster without the Coaster
• Bed sheets with turds on it

Flavorless, Worse, Settling for a lesser product. There will always be people who like horrible changes.

Example: Shinten spam is somehow more busy with Kaiten Removal. Yet Kaiten according to " your own words " is 1 button to much to keep you busy?..." contradiction" ...

There will be company simps even when they produce subpar experiences vs what we used to have. There will be others actively going to the forum with outrageous takes to bait frustrated people, possibly aiming to derail the thread topic. What's new.

My advice to your advice, in spite of players like yourself who likes the changes? And you're free to like anything, if there is a large amount of critique? It is a sign that a company messed up. Square as a company is not immune to Flaws. Thus, neither is FFXIV. Hence, expect critique on bad changes.

If you have doubt there was any backlash on the negative Samurai changes? " Click Here " and indulge in some,... critique

[RyuuZero]

But if you're going to critique it, you're also going to have to accept that people might like the change in spite of what you think.

even those who do not mind the Kaiten Removal agree that Kenki now is (mostly) just there for Shinten and cannot be utilized to boost (for example) Iaijutsu Damage^^

I have the feeling that Devs also shifted the Priority of Damage Output from concentrating to the heavy hitting Abilities to just tune the Heavy Hitter down a bit but therefor make the Filler Skills more spammy.. which I don't think it's a Good direction if that replaces the past depth of the Job..