What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[ReynTime]

Reading about Zepla's reaction really makes me wish we'd get at least ONE content creator who'd openly criticize some aspects of the game like the writing. Someone kind of like MisshapenChair who wouldn't give two fudges about angry responses to their criticism.

IMO every mainstream game needs to have at least one critique like that to give an opposing PoV.

[Rulakir]

How did we understand the Ancients fluently when we went to Elpis?

I think the Echo allows us to understand them.

Reading about Zepla's reaction really makes me wish we'd get at least ONE content creator who'd openly criticize some aspects of the game like the writing.

The problem is this community is vicious. Rich Campbell was having his sponsorships threatened because he agreed with Emet in 5.0. I'm disappointed Zepla didn't stick to her guns, but I understand why. She doesn't stream anything else but FFXIV and is in good standing with SE to where she gets to interview Yoshi-P. Why would she jeopardize that? However, I do wish she wouldn't insult the people who think differently, that makes her part of the problem.

What amazes me is the gaslighting surrounding Venat ended in 6.0. Not only did the NieR crossover make her look like a villain, but the Omega quest chain also walked back a lot of the positive narrative surrounding her. Both of which were exclusively written by Ishikawa. Yet, you've still got ardent defenders of Venat who insist she made the best and only choice.

[Teraq]

I'm not villifying anybody specific or this thread as a whole. Just pointing out that it's creating your own faction to counter another faction. Aka tribalism.

I don't see how you couldn't? Half the people in this thread have stated how they, for example, felt drowned out or annoyed at trying to debate with people on other threads or platforms by people who all shared similar opinions. That's the exact same problem, but in reverse.

No, it's not "the exact same problem" when one group is the obvious minority. Do you realize this is the kind of reasoning people use to discredit safe spaces? I don't care about engaging the opposition. It's exhausting. I deal with people enough in real life. I want to enjoy things on the internet with people I agree with in my free time.

If people want to come in here just to argue and they're unhappy their arguments are being refuted, then they're free to go and enjoy literally any other FFXIV social media, away from the big meanies who don't like Endwalker.

You mean talking about how Zepla was wrong about this thread?

Yes. Because she is a person with a large platform and made a dismissive statement founded on nothing more than the thread title and its number of pages. Is there anything wrong with calling this out? Should we just take this lying down?

But in any case, very well done. At the exact same moment wider attention was called to this thread, you have personally managed to derail it and make it entirely about how the minority is really, really mean to the majority. Not a great look for us, indeed. Mission accomplished, huh?

Feel free to type up a response to this, I will be ignoring it. No need to drag this out any longer, I wouldn't want you to derail the thread again with a back and forth like you did with Theodric when he rightly called out the obnoxious puritanical villain-fans-are-bad part of the fandom.

Reading about Zepla's reaction really makes me wish we'd get at least ONE content creator who'd openly criticize some aspects of the game like the writing. Someone kind of like MisshapenChair who wouldn't give two fudges about angry responses to their criticism.

IMO every mainstream game needs to have at least one critique like that to give an opposing PoV.

Not familiar with streamers and youtubers myself, is there truly no one at all criticizing EW? That would honestly be a little depressing and... unsurprising.

How did we understand the Ancients fluently when we went to Elpis? When it's already established they speak an entirely different, incomprehensible-to-us language? I don't actually even remember how we understood the shades in Amaurot but I do recall they weren't literally speaking our tongue we just somehow understood what they were saying without actually understanding their language. Yet when we go to Elpis they just speak fluent modern-tongue?

There's a line I genuinely didn't get, it's when Hythlo expresses relief you talk their language. I would have thought that people back then were just "beyond" language in a way, as they presumably all had Echo powers. Why would the WoL not talking their language be an issue at all?

[CrownySuccubus]

No, it's not "the exact same problem" when one group is the obvious minority. Do you realize this is the kind of reasoning people use to discredit safe spaces?

The reason the "safe space" analogy doesn't work here is because no one is being excluded from participating in a universal activity. For example, no one is kicking you off of FFXIV servers if you don't like the story the same way you can, say, be arrested for being trans in the wrong places.

What you're arguing is like an atheist walking into a church to argue whether God exists, being told to leave because they're disrupting the worshippers, claiming that this was unfair and wrong because it doesn't allow free speech, and then creating a new Church of Atheism that kicks out the first person argues that God exists.

Like I said, if that's what you want to do, then fine. It simply makes you NO BETTER than the people you're criticizing.

Yes. Because she is a person with a large platform and made a dismissive statement founded on nothing more than the thread title and its number of pages. Is there anything wrong with calling this out? Should we just take this lying down?

I mean, do what you want. But, I'm not exactly sure how you think arguing this with people who already agree with you "calls out" anything or isn't "taking it lying down".

But in any case, very well done. At the exact same moment wider attention was called to this thread, you have personally managed to derail it and make it entirely about how the minority is really, really mean to the majority. Not a great look for us, indeed. Mission accomplished, huh?

Pretty sure I've said that the majority is mean as well, and that I said MOST instances of discussion in this thread are chill.

I mean, if nothing else, you're proving my point that people are getting over-sensitive when someone dares disagree with the consensus even SLIGHTLY.

Feel free to type up a response to this, I will be ignoring it. No need to drag this out any longer, I wouldn't want you to derail the thread again with a back and forth like you did with Theodric when he rightly called out the obnoxious puritanical villain-fans-are-bad part of the fandom.

Thanks once again for proving my point that thread-posters tend to dislike back-and-forth arguments which ignore rest of the thread.

It's absolutely funny that you guys are agreeing with, and confirming, everything I said but want to act like I'm somehow the ignoble party here.

I see people talking about getting downvoted off of threads or getting kicked from discord groups. The closest thing to that here is if someone reports your post and it actually gets removed. I fail to see the issue with several people responding to you at once on this platform. Either way I think, we've belabored the point to death.

Teraq literally just explained in the quote above how merely ARGUING with opposition (especially when it's you alone versus a mob) is annoying, tiring and draining. Hell, both you and he have basically just decided to "ignore me" and disengage because you think I'm wrong and disrupting the the thread. Despite the fact, I might add, that your proposed "solution" was to pick one or two people to exclusively argue with on a thread or whatever.

So let me ask: do you guys like it when people you consider annoying continue to argue with you? Because it seems you think that's what I'm doing.

[Xirean]

Teraq literally just explained in the quote above how merely ARGUING with opposition (especially when it's you alone versus a mob) is annoying, tiring and draining. Hell, both you and he have basically just decided to "ignore me" and disengage because you think I'm wrong and disrupting the the thread. Despite the fact, I might add, that your proposed "solution" was to pick one or two people to exclusively argue with on a thread or whatever.

So let me ask: do you guys like it when people you consider annoying continue to argue with you? Because it seems you think that's what I'm doing.

I'm not ignoring anyone. I said me bit and felt that was enough. I have nothing else to add to this current topic. I felt the meme posted was funny and still disagree with your point.

[Teraq]

I've only just discovered this thread exists via the Omega questline thread and wow, what a cathartic read. I've basically been coping and seething since December with no outlet. Vent incoming.

I will never get tired of new faces coming into this thread, finally realizing they're not alone and just. Letting it all out. YOU LOVE TO SEE IT

I am fortunate enough I have friends who share my opinion and whom I could rant and vent to since late December. Before that was hell and I can't imagine going 6 months keeping this much seething and malding to myself. Welcome.

The possibility of saving them is basically dangled in front of us and then cruelly snatched away. I struggle to fathom who would consider the popularity of the ancients and still think this sort of bait is a good idea.

I have more and more come to accept that Shadowbringers was just a fluke. They created one of the most popular villains in the franchise and, if YoshiP's recent tone-deaf comparison of Venat and Hermes's reception to Emet's is anything to go by, they apparently have no idea how.

It's not just that the writing of Endwalker was... um... questionable, but what they did – largely to the Ancients; there are probably other issues too but I will fully admit I'm biased here so I'll talk about what incenses me the most – actively diminishes what made Shadowbringers so powerful and nuanced in the first place. I genuinely don't know how you could hit upon such a gold mine with positive fan reaction and engagement then subsequently tell us "Actually, these people were definitely wrong. They never had any hope of overcoming the completely avoidable tragedy that befell them, they deserved it, and erasing their entire culture and civilisation from history was very definitely, obviously the only Right way to defeat Meteion, but we'll pretend to still raise the 'grey morality' question by having Venat self-flagellate. It's what you guys like, right? The grey morality thing? Yes?"

And then we get Emet in Ultima Thule. Which... ugh. I'll just use the phrase "twist of the knife", do the sassy handwave and drop the subject – it's the only way I'm willing to deal with it right now.

As someone else said, this was Victim Blaming: The Expansion, and don't you love it when it ends with one of the victims – the only one that truly matters to the writer, by the way (clenches fist in Elidibus Enjoyer) – begrudgingly praising the abuser that was responsible for their last 12,000 years of suffering? It's a great story about hope in the face of despair, isn't it?

quite frankly the fact that after seeing this behaviour Emet thinks having him on the convocation would be a boon is ridiculous. Did we get different cutscenes? This man should be in therapy, not a position of governance.

This is why I couldn't fully enjoy Elpis even before Ktisis. I loved the fanservice with the world building, I really did, and even though Emet isn't my #1 fave I appreciated hanging out with him and Hythlo. But Hermes... god. The more it went on, the more I got this sinking feeling that the game was justifying him with the animal rights pity party, even though I personally found it over-exaggerated and silly. But I could feel the game bashing me over the head with "SEE? DON'T YOU THINK HE'S RIGHT?? NOBODY UNDERSTANDS HIM! WHAT ABOUT THE POOR artificial prototype ANIMALS??? LOOK AT THE AXOLOTL AND THIS LITTLE HEDGEHOG FAMILY OH MY GODDd" – even though every other Ancient in the side quests felt like actually normal people – and more than anything, I resented the blatant attempt at emotional manipulation.

It was plainly obvious to me since his second scene that this man should have never stayed in his position this long, and that the solution was definitely not giving him a job with even more responsibilities on the Highest Grand Council of Humanity when he blatantly demonstrated that having to take pragmatic decisions for the good of the many made him melt down.

Needless to say Elidibus and Zodiark were also both done dirty to the extreme, where is the reverence for the one that sacrificed himself for the greater good and solely in service to his brethren? Instead we heap praise on somebody who only acted in haughty self importance and service of her own beliefs. Overall, Elidibus is an all round good egg and deserves far more credit in the narrative than he got.

nggggghh lately I've been feeling the need to Elidibuspost... kind of like when you feel a sneeze coming. Getting onto my soapbox and making a heartfelt plea for the biggest tragedy of this 10-year story arc, the handling of Elidibus's character. Look, this post is getting long enough.

I'd would be interesting to get a honest run down of what happened in the build up to Endwalker, it feels very much like something went wrong.

Same, but I really doubt we'll ever hear a 100% honest blunt tale of it, corporate Japan presumably being what it is.

But, bluntly, when it comes to how expectations affect one's response to things - I probably wouldn't have been nearly as vocally disappointed in Endwalker if Shadowbringers hadn't surprised me, blown me away, and genuinely touched me in a lot of ways. Prior to Shadowbringers, I was a fan of FFXIV and had been playing and enjoying it for a while, but on a writing level, it usually amounted to "I can see the effort being put in here and it's fun to dissect on that level, but it's pretty clumsy more often than not." [...]
And because EW is a direct continuation and resolution to those ShB elements I treasured, I can't even compartmentalize the way they clash. So rather than shrugging it off, I opted to explode and thoroughly embarrass myself by ranting and raving on these forums, it seems. Whoops!

Very much agree with the sentiment. I'll even say EW made me regret getting so invested emotionally in ShB. I wish I hadn't had any expectations for 6.0 – then maybe my response to it would have been a big ol' shrug, like my reaction to the story largely was prior to ShB.

It's made all the worse by 6.0 supposedly being the mega-hyped big finale of the arc, wrapping up everything. When the episode you're watching isn't the finale yet, you can handwave certain plot points not getting addressed / being done justice yet, because there's always the hope it's going to pay off later. I was willing to forgive patches 5.2 and 5.3 for A LOT, because it's not the end yet, right? Pretty sure I'll get a lot more resolution in the expac that is literally going to be about Hydaelyn and Zodiark and heavily teased the Moon, right?? And now that the cat is out of the bag, I have barely enough hopium left in my tank for Pandaemonium.

Also.... they did basically bring emet back because of fan appeal. That much is quite obvious lol. Elpis was just a huge fanservice parade for emet as well as the end of UT. This is pretty obvious when you read his 5.3 short story where he states this is his last act....SPOILER IT WASNT.

This right here pisses me off in particular. I thought it was a perfect ending for his filthy traitor sentimental self. IMO it was like Zenos's suicide at the end of 4.0: great end to the character, now drop it. I'm not against flashbacks, but UT definitely went way too far with the cringe. Know when to quit.

If I recall correctly he mentions having watched the fight itself unfold from afar. (Which begs the question as to why he did not seek to intervene...but I digress!)

Presumably he would have seen what happened immediately before and after as well.

If it's any help, in the French script he explicitly refers to this as an incidental dream vision – though I don't know how it is qualified in Japanese. (My very-basic-weeaboo-level Japanese didn't pick up on any mention of yume. That's all I can tell you.) I just assumed it was his own Echo powers, and that he saw it after the fact.