Has anyone quit healing?

[Renathras]

Just don't fall into Silverbane's meta-commentary trap. They're absolutely right about what they're saying but you're the only one on "that side" of things that are actually making any good points about the position. Don't think that they're a victim of what you've been a victim of.

For all of Silverbane's blustering about meaningful discussion their point is "Well I like it, so it shouldn't change." followed by complaining that nobody is having a meaningful discussion (despite everyone describing facts and what is wrong and ways to fix it).

I've been more or less avoiding it thus far, have I not?

Silverbane is right about one thing, though: Many people DO like healing in the game. The people that like it generally aren't coming to forums to complain about it, leading this place to become a seeming echo-chamber that is very likely overstating complaints against it and understating support for it. It doesn't help when people do come out pretty hard with the personal attacks when someone DOES wonder to this place that likes healing and expresses that they like it. As you've noted, I'm making good points, yet look at some (many?) of the replies to me that are more interested in caricatures - even as I reply calmly explaining what I'm saying and not what they're insisting I'm saying - instead.

And my own position isn't "Well I like it, so it shouldn't change" (and hers seems not to be, either). It's "many people do like it, so any changes should leave at least one healer untouched for the people that enjoy current day healing". I've gone even further, proposing changes to the different healers based on their capabilities and playstyles (e.g. how AST should have a 1-2-3 to ensure a constant rotation that they can plan Card plays around vs SCH being DoT focused because of both its past and that it can lean on Eos and her oGCD support abilities as well as Aetherflow to heal while maintaining DoT uptime, and SGE having a RDM/BLM-lite rotation due to leveraging Kardia to heal instead and so it using a damage rotation with Kardia swapping/augmenting abilities and its healing efficacy being based on how skilled the player is with their DPS rotation seems a natural fit - and is arguably what SGE in PvP is already doing, admittedly with a simpler rotation) and which should be left alone AND WHY - WHM due to it traditionally being the easy one anyway, only ever having 1 more DoT (if we don't include 2.1 allowing Thunder to be cross-classed OR count SB where they also had Aero 3...which I still miss the animation of to this day), and being the base/"easy" healer that many healers get their start with before branching out as-is.

.

EDIT: I've been attacked for suggesting that ANY healer be allowed to stay as it is; even though the alternative (with these Devs) is likely for them ALL to remain as they are.

At the end of the day, it's up to the Devs. But it is important to understand that a large portion of the player base likes healing as it is. And they aren't all bads, trolls, and/or newbies. At the very least, the change side should acknowledge that and offer some compromise that isn't "Well, you can just be suboptimal by not using all the damage tools and just not run hard content and it won't matter". The irony is that these same people note how tone-deaf it was for Yoshi P to say "If you want a challenge, just run Ultimates", yet they're doing the inverse of that "If you don't like complex, just don't run anything harder than normals or have a group carry you".

The fact no one seems to realize they're doing the very thing they decried Yoshi P for doing, and something the Devs' design post SB has directly opposed, seems not to register...

[Nethereal]

EDIT: I've been attacked for suggesting that ANY healer be allowed to stay as it is; even though the alternative (with these Devs) is likely for them ALL to remain as they are.

At the end of the day, it's up to the Devs. But it is important to understand that a large portion of the player base likes healing as it is. And they aren't all bads, trolls, and/or newbies. At the very least, the change side should acknowledge that and offer some compromise that isn't "Well, you can just be suboptimal by not using all the damage tools and just not run hard content and it won't matter". The irony is that these same people note how tone-deaf it was for Yoshi P to say "If you want a challenge, just run Ultimates", yet they're doing the inverse of that "If you don't like complex, just don't run anything harder than normals or have a group carry you".

The fact no one seems to realize they're doing the very thing they decried Yoshi P for doing, and something the Devs' design post SB has directly opposed, seems not to register...

I'm fairly certain any post pertaining to liking the way current healing is will be be rebutted unless it simply is: "I like the way current healing is."

And even those posts might attract a certain ire not particular to the originator but from the people who flock in agreement with the sentiment.

While I like to give everyone the benefit of the doubt way too many people who have said "I like the way healing is, *insert argument*." have been eventually found out for simply being narcissist's whose argument essentially boiled down to:

"I like the way it is, play with bad people if you want your job to be good, I don't care if you're not having fun, deal with it."

Sage was the perfect time for the devs to actually try something new especially with how they were touting it as the "dps healer" the sheer lack of recognition to even call it that or maybe the hubris tells us a lot about how job development in the future is going to be, at least for healer.

While I understand my fellow healers dislike to having a class stay the 'basic b*tch' If the devs ever do make healers good again there's a high likelihood that one healer is going to stay with the original design to appease both sides or in 6 years the 5th healer might be of the opposite current design.

In regards to the population that likes the way healing is, if it was a competition most of them would be "bad" or ranked extremely low, as is the rule of competence.
Incompetence will always be in more abundance than competence.
In terms of the amount of trolls in said group can't say there's anymore than usual in any particular group.

Using the above we could say that most healers who like the way current healing is simply don't understand the way current healer functions in the total or simply don't care to follow the way the game wants you to play it and just have fun with it regardless of consequence.
Such players would do just fine with any change as long as GCD heals remain intact as they do not strive to improve in any particular way or direction that doesn't include their enjoyment.
They don't run anything harder than normal already and groups already do carry them.
So it really wouldn't matter because they simply wouldn't change even if the buttons they pressed were changed.
What would change is people would more often recognize now how incompetent they are by the games standards but no more than people recognize free style SAM and ice mages so no biggie.

I wouldn't put completely misrepresenting the question intentionally or otherwise, giving a non answer in addition to dismissively shutting down said question on the same level as:

"Yeah it could be harder than it was before but not any harder than any of the dps classes or tank classes, healers are the only class that is infantilized by the devs."

Now if you disagree with the above that's a whole other can of worms.

The difference between the two comparisons you make is that one person doesn't understand the question in its entirety and probably gave a non-answer intentionally, has not experienced and probably has no experience in general about healing and is relegating a group to a specific corner of the game if they want to find enjoyment.

Whereas the other group understands both sides of the argument as they have been the noob and risen to the "elite hardcore raider" and are advocating for complexity across the board so everyone can have fun everywhere.

That's just my take though and I'm probably going to be quitting after I finish this next ultimate so~

[Liam_Harper]

The irony is that these same people note how tone-deaf it was for Yoshi P to say "If you want a challenge, just run Ultimates", yet they're doing the inverse of that "If you don't like complex, just don't run anything harder than normals or have a group carry you".

Why are we using the word "complex" with regards to adding a few dps buttons and having a little more damage to heal? A handful of dps buttons and having the group take damage more frequently than every 60 seconds or so is not rocket science. You're insulting your own intelligence by making statements like that.

[Renathras]

Why are we using the word "complex" with regards to adding a few dps buttons and having a little more damage to heal? A handful of dps buttons and having the group take damage more frequently than every 60 seconds or so is not rocket science. You're insulting your own intelligence by making statements like that.

So about those personal attacks...

Have you read any of my posts? I'm all in favor of making damage smaller but more frequent - this would require more GCD healing since you'd run out of oGCDs healing all the little bumps of damage and you'd want to save the oGCDs for the bigger bursts that need to be healed more rapidly). And yes, adding more DPS buttons to juggle makes it more complex. If it didn't, the people wanting it wouldn't be asking for it. It may not make it MUCH MORE complex, but it kind of makes them more complex by definition.

But, if you've read my posts, you'd know by now that I've advocated leaving WHM as it is but changing each of the other three (I'll say it in brief yet again: Give AST a 1-2-3 rotation and maybe an oGCD damage spell to weave in [MCH-lite], give SCH more DoTs and interacting abilities like Fester/Bane/DoTs with CDs that you want to stack in Fester windows/etc, leveraging its Faerie and Aetherflow for healing while maintaining DoT uptime [old SMN-lite...or heavy], and give SCH a slimmed down RDM or BLM-like Caster rotation where its healing is primarily through Kardia swapping while performing its rotation, also having abilities like a short duration second Kardia [think AST's Synastry] to heal a second target and an AOE Kardia [CD with a relatively short duration effect] that makes Kardia AOE healing. Really lean into Kardia being their primary method of healing with their GCD heals as an emergency backup and their oGCDs being mainly focused on doing more DPS to boost its healing, with some being based around mitigation/shielding [RDM/BLM-lite that heals as it does damage])

So no, I'm not insulting my little smooth brain intelligence, I just want there to be more playstyles but ensure we keep at least one as-is for the people that enjoy current day healing.

.

EDIT:

I'm fairly certain any post pertaining to liking the way current healing is will be be rebutted unless it simply is: "I like the way current healing is."

The replies to me show otherwise.

While I like to give everyone the benefit of the doubt way too many people who have said "I like the way healing is, *insert argument*." have been eventually found out for simply being narcissist's whose argument essentially boiled down to:

"I like the way it is, play with bad people if you want your job to be good, I don't care if you're not having fun, deal with it."

This is ...basically what I'm talking about here. And no, I haven't said that at all, nor have I seen other people saying that. I think AT BEST that's you misunderstanding something, and resulting in a caricature of their positions.

Rapid fire:

Sage: Agree, I felt it was going to be a RIFT Chloromancer or WoW Disc Priest and was surprised to see it...not be that.

"Basic B": Ah, another fan of Cole Evryx? I agree with this position, and it's partly what I'm advocating for personally.

"most of them would be 'bad' or ranked extremely low": Remember that personal insult thing I mentioned above? Yeah, this is that. And no, most of them wouldn't be. Me personally, I have no static. I've still managed greens and blues despite this (and not running any add-ons myself to practice this with or determine this myself - just find myself on the abacus after the fact), and I could probably push myself further and would, if I had a consistent group to do the encounters with, make a healing plan with my co-healer, etc. As it is, I have to YOLO things and provide more of a buffer (more GCD heals, more careful use of oGCDs) since I'd rather parse low (I honestly don't care about parses for the most part anyway in a GENERAL sense) and clear the content than see a DPS eat dirt because they did the stupid and I didn't put an Adlo on them.

I would contend that most, in fact, would not be "'bad' or ranked extremely low". It's all based on individual circumstances.

"In terms of the amount of trolls": So about those rebuttals instead of personal attacks...likening people to trolls for holding a position IS said personal attacks.

"Using the above we could say that most healers who like the way current healing is simply don't understand the way current healer functions in the total or simply don't care: Do I need to repeat myself YET AGAIN?

"Such players would do just fine with any change": As I've noted elsewhere, this is not true. This is, again, a case of "Just play easy content if you don't want to play our way", which is the 180 of Yoshi P's incendiary statement. How is "They can just play easy content" any better than him saying "You can just play harder content"?

"they do not strive to improve in any particular way or direction that doesn't include their enjoyment": So...personal attacks. Yeah. Moving on.

"They don't run anything harder than normal already": This is abjectly false. Many of us smooth brains run Extremes and have as our typical end-game content. Some of us get into Savages (I started just this tier after playing for 9 years)

"and groups already do carry them": PERSONAL. ATTACKS.

"What would change is people would more often recognize now how incompetent they are": PERSONAL. ATTACKS. Seriously, for a post saying "people rebut your points and don't call you names", this is a LOT of name-calling. I get you aren't EXPLICITLY naming me, but you're insulting groups that I'm at least incidentally associated with, and these insults are bad/baseless. And even if they WEREN'T, they're still personal attacks and not arguing the points. Indeed, ALL of the times above you made these personal attacks, you often had a point to make. For example, you could have said "This won't matter to players doing easier content where optimization isn't needed and they may not want to engage in any". Instead, you said that first part, then insisted they were bad, lazy, etc. In the words of Ace Ventura: "Leave that part out next time!"

"Now if you disagree with the above that's a whole other can of worms": Is it, now?

The difference between the two comparisons you make is that one person doesn't understand the question in its entirety and probably gave a non-answer intentionally, has not experienced and probably has no experience in general about healing and is relegating a group to a specific corner of the game if they want to find enjoyment.

Whereas the other group understands both sides of the argument as they have been the noob and risen to the "elite hardcore raider" and are advocating for complexity across the board so everyone can have fun everywhere.

No, that's you making a distinction so you can support one side over the other on a technicality when they ARE both doing the same thing, just one you agree with.

That's just my take though and I'm probably going to be quitting after I finish this next ultimate so~

I do say this genuinely, though:

I am sorry to hear that. I genuinely am sad that some of you just really don't like the game/healing as it is now. Which is why I have advocated changing it. But, there are limits to changes, and any good compromise ends with everyone getting some of what they want but neither side getting everything. At the end of the day, we should see to the needs of both sides and meet there with a compromise, not go whole hog one or the other; hence what I've been advocating for.

[Nethereal]

This is ...basically what I'm talking about here. And no, I haven't said that at all, nor have I seen other people saying that. I think AT BEST that's you misunderstanding something, and resulting in a caricature of their positions.

I haven't been checking your posts specifically but as far as I can tell you indeed haven't been doing that.

I'm not surprised you haven't been seeing that either as you've only joined this discussion very recently and the same people have been talking about this issue since the inception of the healer threads in response to YoshiP telling healers to go play Ultimate and even before that.
And said people who have outed themselves have all eventually stopped visiting said threads and even if they do revisit it's not like they're going to re-admit to anything you would have to go check their post history if you want to see it for yourself though you might not even find it because of some pages getting nuked due to reports.
You would think I'm using hyperbole but it's verbatim, people have genuinely said those things, multiple people at that.

"most of them would be 'bad' or ranked extremely low": Remember that personal insult thing I mentioned above? Yeah, this is that. And no, most of them wouldn't be.

Reality is not an insult. The truth can be though if used in inappropriate times.
If you choose to believe in a statistical improbability that's on you.

Me personally, I have no static. I've still managed greens and blues despite this (and not running any add-ons myself to practice this with or determine this myself - just find myself on the abacus after the fact), and I could probably push myself further and would, if I had a consistent group to do the encounters with, make a healing plan with my co-healer, etc. As it is, I have to YOLO things and provide more of a buffer (more GCD heals, more careful use of oGCDs) since I'd rather parse low (I honestly don't care about parses for the most part anyway in a GENERAL sense) and clear the content than see a DPS eat dirt because they did the stupid and I didn't put an Adlo on them.

This is fair.
In general though you don't need a static to get a purple on any class you just need to understand the fight and not bend to bad play.
Only so much damage and it gets easier the more loot you get.
Purples are an eventuality static or no static.

I would contend that most, in fact, would not be "'bad' or ranked extremely low". It's all based on individual circumstances.

These circumstances are irrelevant in the way the game wants you to play and in the vacuum I was proposing they would be ranked under.

"In terms of the amount of trolls": So about those rebuttals instead of personal attacks...likening people to trolls for holding a position IS said personal attacks.

To deny any group does not have bad faith actors is you believing in another bad faith statistic. Nor was I implying that everyone who holds an opposition to me is a troll.

"Such players would do just fine with any change": As I've noted elsewhere, this is not true. This is, again, a case of "Just play easy content if you don't want to play our way", which is the 180 of Yoshi P's incendiary statement. How is "They can just play easy content" any better than him saying "You can just play harder content"?

Not sure where you've noted it.
Easy content is anything below ultimate so I fail to see the issue.
Bad players already do everything including ultimate, they just don't clear it.
It's better because you're making false equivalencies.

Yoshi wants to push a whole group of players into a corner to find enjoyment, my position pushes no one into any corner, is a benefit to everyone and even the players worse off skill wise are not effected heavily if at all and will just be treated like any other class now.

"they do not strive to improve in any particular way or direction that doesn't include their enjoyment": So...personal attacks. Yeah. Moving on.

Once again reality is not an attack.
I understand you're new to the discussion and haven't seen first hand said people admit to simply not pressing buttons because they don't look nice but those people exist and to equate referencing their existence to a personal attack is just a fallacy on your part.

"They don't run anything harder than normal already": This is abjectly false. Many of us smooth brains run Extremes and have as our typical end-game content. Some of us get into Savages (I started just this tier after playing for 9 years)

This is also true.

"and groups already do carry them": PERSONAL. ATTACKS.

YoshiP has admitted to making content designed to allow people not as skilled to be carried E.G. alliance content.
I'm not sure why you think referencing skill level or competence/incompetence is an attack on someone when used in relevant conversations points.

"What would change is people would more often recognize now how incompetent they are": PERSONAL. ATTACKS. Seriously, for a post saying "people rebut your points and don't call you names", this is a LOT of name-calling. I get you aren't EXPLICITLY naming me, but you're insulting groups that I'm at least incidentally associated with, and these insults are bad/baseless.

I can see why you would feel that way if a group you identify yourself with/in is being criticized but you need to be able to detach and look at things logically without letting emotions cloud judgement.
This is hard if you feel you're being attacked.

And even if they WEREN'T, they're still personal attacks and not arguing the points. Indeed, ALL of the times above you made these personal attacks, you often had a point to make. For example, you could have said "This won't matter to players doing easier content where optimization isn't needed and they may not want to engage in any". Instead, you said that first part, then insisted they were bad, lazy, etc. In the words of Ace Ventura: "Leave that part out next time!"

I'm not sure why you think I'm calling people lazy.
Some people simply "play" the game badly because the game wants you to play a specific way and that's not fun for them, not like anyone can stop them.
I infact was one of said people who played the game wrong and made my party aware that this was how I was going to be playing until it became a problem and that was in ultimate.
It has nothing to do with laziness though there are people in general who can be lazy.

I could word things differently but there's no reason to.
If someone takes offense to something so benign there's no point anyway.

No, that's you making a distinction so you can support one side over the other on a technicality when they ARE both doing the same thing, just one you agree with.

If you can't see the false equivalency there's not much point to this discussion.

I do say this genuinely, though:

I am sorry to hear that. I genuinely am sad that some of you just really don't like the game/healing as it is now. Which is why I have advocated changing it. But, there are limits to changes, and any good compromise ends with everyone getting some of what they want but neither side getting everything. At the end of the day, we should see to the needs of both sides and meet there with a compromise, not go whole hog one or the other; hence what I've been advocating for.

Agreed.

To be honest this conversation is a great display of why particular groups gravitate the way they do.
An "elitist" does not care if they're doing bad in any particular instance nor if they're called out because they know getting better is an eventuality and such a mindset allows for more intellectual freedom with other people around them.
A "casual" who does bad and is called out feels bad, and feels they're being discriminated against based on something they can't change because they do not believe they can get better they feel they're stuck in this one instance of failure on repeat and to reference said failure is to call back on all their failures of the past. Such a mindset only allows for people of similar traits to be amongst them as opposing traits will eventually "trigger" them.

Very similar to how A talent hires A talent and B talent hires C talent.

[Renathras]

....

I think some of this falls to different definitions.

For example, when I'm calling out personal attacks, in reply to a poster saying they weren't happening, it's not an emotive outburst on my part. I'm noting them specifically because the post I quoted indicated they don't occur.

As for the "not everyone in groups" - that's valid; yes, every group has their bad actors. But because EVERY group has their bad actors, pointing out the actions of the bad actors isn't something we Humans tend to do in vacuum. People tend to do it to draw a guilt by association with those who are NOT said bad actors. If we run with the base premise that every group has black sheep who make everyone else in the group look bad despite having little in common with the majority of the group, those black sheep more or less cancel out across groups. There's no clear metric determining that one or another has more, and even if there were, it isn't relevant when talking to the members that aren't said black sheep.

So if you mention such members of groups, I'm going to be running with the assumption you mean to imply that the group as a whole is inclined towards such, or has a greater prevalence of them than other groups, as there's really no reason for you to mention them otherwise, I would think. Saying "A few people in this thread are..." is different than saying "People in this camp/group are..." as the former implies rogue individuals while the latter implies some inference about the group as a whole. Agreed?

It's why I try - I don't always SUCCEED, but I do try - to avoid such comparisons and stick to the arguments people make.

EDIT:

As to a few of the other points:

BLUE you can get with fight knowledge. Purple is more based on gear. A SMN as my "emergency DPS alt" sitting around 580 that I ran Aglaia on. Despite understanding the rotation and the fights, and optimizing as needed (e.g. using Titan on Thall's Balls), my parses were generally going to be in the blue range. There's no more fight knowledge or optimization to conduct at that point (though I suppose I could res people less) that will get that to purple. To get to purple, I would need more gear. Purple parses are more gear than skill. Orange parses require both, and sometimes (for classes that have little optimization/low skill ceiling), luck - e.g. Crits. NOTE: This is NOT me saying that purple parses require no SKILL. It's more me saying that a purple parse is a blue parsing person with more gear and GENERALLY a better/less prone to mistakes group. In the case of healers doing Savage/Ultimate levels of content, also having co-healer oGCD plans and competent group use of lining up burst buffs.

EASY content is anything normal. Extremes and often the first 1-2 fights of a Savage tier are mid-core/medium difficulty, not "easy". The 3rd and 4th fights of a Savage tier and Ultimates are generally hard. You're the first person I've ever seen classify Savages into the "easy" tier of content. (NOTE: I've seen people SAY Savages are easy before - usually before being "corrected" by other replies to their posts - but never seen them classified as an easy tier of content...) "Easy" in FFXIV is all normal content, which consists of any MSQ or side story content that is NOT an Extreme, Savage, or Ultimate.

You're bringng up 24 mans as content people are being "carried" through? Why on Earth? 24 mans have long been considered loot pinatas that exist for story and spectacle. When the word "carried" is used, I think most people are talking about Savages and Ultimates. Using 24 mans would be like complaining someone was "carried" through Sastasha normal.

Hard disagree with the "false equivalency". Both cases are an individual saying "If you don't like X play style, you can always just stick to doing only Y content". That is a true parity, and you aren't going to get away with dismissing it as false here.

.

To the last: Which is why I prefer a system that actually does accommodate all types, so everyone can play together. Years ago I played WoW with a casual friends and family group. Everyone knew, irl, someone else in the group and we played together. Some were non-gamers just playing with their significant other while some were pretty hardcore min-maxers. And we kind of made it work. Even cleared some 10 man raids with 9 people. The main issue is that some people just couldn't deal with complex rotations and would have low DPS, but everyone in the group was actually really good at understanding and engaging fight mechanics. We didn't have a meta comp - people just played what they wanted -and we made it work. For the players who couldn't deal with complex rotations, most of them went healer. But because the game allowed for both the complex and the braindead, we were all able to play together, clear content together, and have fun together.

...if you're curious, I was one of the tanks.

Me personally, I prefer systems that let people play and clear content together not that drive people apart.

Hell, even if we went with the gradient system I've proposed, I'd probably end up playing on whatever the medium tier healer is in the end. Especially if there was one with no infernal DoTs! For example, if they made SGE's damage kit RDM-lite, I'd gravitate to that in an instant over SCH having 5-7 DoTs, and probably be a WHM/SGE dual main instead of WHM/SCH as I am now (I upkeep both a pure and barrier healer so I can flex as need be)

I just also know that some people need something more like today to be able to play. And I don't mind that in any way. I have no problem with a person who isn't as good as me being in my FC/party and clearing content alongside me, nor about doing content with someone more skilled as long as I feel I'm contributing meaningfully and not holding my group back. Which is, btw, the reason I never even set foot in a Savage before this tier - I genuinely felt I would cause wipes and waste everyone in the party's time. It took a good deal of prodding from friends telling me Erik isn't really harder than HydEx for me to finally venture into PF for a practice party and go from there. A repeat of my experience getting into Extremes at the start of ShB. Even now, I tend to clear stuff first on WHM if I can and then I'll shift to SCH/SGE after that (though I sometimes do get my first clears on SCH - it's just such a powerful healer and I am really familiar with its overall kit, even if I despise Dissipation...)

I think that's a good system overall. The fight mechanics are complex enough really REALLY bad players won't be able to clear Savages or many Extremes (there are enough "personal responsibility" mechanics to cause wipes in Savages if you don't know the fight, and even in Extremes, there's generally one or two "soft-personal responsibility", like how you can cleave people with Ice or the role-cleaves in HydEx and cause wipes that way that aren't just you dying) outside of some cheese strategies (that people pay millions for carries using) anyway. At some level, you have to know the fight. So that already demands a baseline level of competence.

Indeed, I'd honestly argue that tanks are the role with the least responsibility (ironically...) in most encounters. As long as they're actually hitting CDs at vaguely the right times and not cleaving or dragging tethers into the party, groups can clear content. If you have healers that are just REALLY bad at healing (and some...somehow are, despite all our tools), people will just be dying too much to clear anything.

.

But anyway, lots of words, I'm sure you won't agree to any of them. Though I do think part of our disagreement comes from how we define terms...

[Nethereal]

good stuff

Surprisingly I agree with your entire post except for 2 issues.

I've created, kicked, left FCs, and co-lead with about 20 statics in ffxiv alone and I can tell you there is nothing in this game worth losing friends over for a clear.
I much more prefer groups stay friend groups first, raid groups second as long as they started out that way.
If they started out as a raid group first and know what they signed up for then that's that.

The only thing I'm going to dispute is:

I'm noting them specifically because the post I quoted indicated they don't occur.

If this was talking about the quote you used from me, I never denied people in "my camp" used ad hominems nor was I trying to indicate they didn't.

And the only thing I'm actually curious about is this:

Hard disagree with the "false equivalency". Both cases are an individual saying "If you don't like X play style, you can always just stick to doing only Y content". That is a true parity, and you aren't going to get away with dismissing it as false here.

Why do you consider someone saying: "If you don't like it you can just go play in the corner."
comparable to: "We're going to change the system to more accommodate everyone, it should only lightly effect the group already having fun if at all."

Other than that I got nothing.

[Renathras]

Surprisingly I agree with your entire post except for 2 issues.

I've created, kicked, left FCs, and co-lead with about 20 statics in ffxiv alone and I can tell you there is nothing in this game worth losing friends over for a clear.
I much more prefer groups stay friend groups first, raid groups second as long as they started out that way.
If they started out as a raid group first and know what they signed up for then that's that.

The only thing I'm going to dispute is:


If this was talking about the quote you used from me, I never denied people in "my camp" used ad hominems nor was I trying to indicate they didn't.

And the only thing I'm actually curious about is this:



Why do you consider someone saying: "If you don't like it you can just go play in the corner."
comparable to: "We're going to change the system to more accommodate everyone, it should only lightly effect the group already having fun if at all."

Other than that I got nothing.

I like agreeing with people. It's nice.

To answer your last question:

Because (1) I estimate the probability of people being harassed for "continuing to play as they have" as much more likely than you seem to, (2) you're telling people to play in a corner, too, just a different corner, (3) I much more highly estimate the impairment this will have on people, and (4) this collectively shifts my view of it into a zero-sum game of sorts; it isn't win-win or all benefit-no cost.

The idea from the complex camp seems to be something GENERALLY along the lines of:

"(1) People can still be bad/play simple, (2) they just won't get to clear some content they can clear now, but (3) SURELY it'll be such a negligible loss and they don't bother to get good and adapt, so they probably either don't care or weren't cut out for that content anyway, so no loss, (4) win-win for everyone, let's do it, what's to lose?"

EDIT:

The reality is, I remember when people would berate healers for not DPSing (hell, people do it NOW), or not DPSing optimally ("I didn't see you in Cleric enough...! Why are you trolling us?!"), while ALSO berating healers for DPSing too much (not a thing NOW, but if party members start dropping because WHM was in the middle of his melee combo and can't be bothered/remember/break it to throw out a heal...) I've seen it happen, so I suspect it would happen again. And keep in mind, at the time I was ONLY doing casual content (I wasn't even doing Extremes until the VERY end of HW when I spent a Saturday afternoon getting my Bismark birdy...on SMN, of all things). So in 4 man casual dungeons. It's like how the community will berate tanks if they aren't doing wall to wall pulls - the game doesn't require or demand it, but anyone not doing it is berated as "wasting everyone's time".

So the idea that people can just keep healing as they are today and NOT be harassed for it is, I believe, a fiction.

The simple people will be FORCED to play more complex or suffer for it, even in casual content. As I've noted before in this thread (I think, several of these kinda blend together...), people complain about others not meeting "the meta" even in content that very clearly does not require it on even a basic level.

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The corner is just a different corner. Yoshi P told you to play in Ultimates to not be bored, you're telling simple players to play only in normals and not farm Extremes, get into Savage, or dare step foot in Ultimates. It's just a different corner, but same energy.

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As a person who does Extremes and has has finally stepped into Savages, I enjoy the content. I find healing engaging and challenging, especially when it's brand new, and even as I've got P1S semi-on farm (got...I dunno, 9 or 10 clears, somewhere in there), I find it enjoyable but still intense. And that's with my simple DPS kit. I've said before I'm a natural healer, my mind works great at deciding what healing tools are best for various situations. My mind does NOT work well with DPS rotations. It's a completely different mental skill. It's why my secondary role is tanking, not damage dealing. Tanking and healing (the healing part of healing) are situational based types of gameplay. You can be proactive, but you're responding to content. DPS is different. The focus is on repetition. It's like the difference between a guitarist and a drummer or bass. The latter have to maintain a constant, steady pace and rhythm while the former tends to dance about more with shifting pace and tome, pauses here or there, etc. A metronome vs free-form musical ad libing.

Under your proposed system, I would likely just never do Savage again, and might find Extremes more stress than they're worth. As these are MY form of endgame, you would be robbing me of that. So something absolutely IS lost. Something I actually value in my game experience.

Now, you can argue I can just "get better" and do it - but again, my mind doesn't work with DPS rotations. Anything harder than WAR I tend to lose my place in, and half the time I forget to refresh the stupid buff. But I can heal effectively in basically any game after 5-10 minutes reading tooltips and a few test heals to see about how much they fill up people's health bars while pressing a single DPS button over and over when not healing. A second if it's a situational thing (I like stuff like Ruin 2 I can use for movement as that's context based, and dislike stuff like Dia/Biolysis/Combust/EuDosis or damage output buffs like Storm's Eye that I have to remember to keep refreshing - though I do like Storm's Eye [WAR] better than stuff like Disembowel [DRG] since Eye stacks twice, 30 sec then 60 sec, so if you refresh it before it expires (8-10 seconds), you aren't hurting yourself, thus giving yourself a bigger window...I still don't LIKE it, as it feels like busywork to just remember to do, but it's preferable if I HAVE to deal with one of those upkeep buffs - again, metronome [DoTs/upkeep buffs] vs free-form ad lib.)

I don't remember the INTJ thing, but I'm the intuitive side, I remember that (don't remember what the counter part to that is...), and that's why the healing side of healing I find enjoyable and a natural fit, but the DPS side I do not.

This is also, btw, why I'm fine with the HEALING requirements being increased as a form of difficulty increase, as my mind works just fine dealing with higher damaging situations and selecting the correct heal for a given situation.

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Leading to my ultimate conclusion:

The proposal is NOT, in fact, win-win/everyone wins/the complex side wins but the simple side loses nothing therefore we should do it as there's no reason not to.

While I can probably nudge myself up a step in rotational difficulty (I have tanked some Extremes on GNB, though I also absolutely parse gray when doing so, I think), the stress level would likely lead me to just not want to do it. And if I no longer have an end-game, I might become one of those people that only subs for MSQ. I might even just stop healing. Would you favor me with the same sorrow I would give you for that situation?

...and there are a lot of other people like me. Does Square want to lose all those subs? Do you?

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This is specifically why I say if AT LEAST/ONLY ONE healer is kept the way it is, I'm fine with making the OTHER THREE complex. It would simultaneously allow you on the complex side to derive enjoyment from your playstyle while not excluding folks like me from having a shot at it.

THAT is the true win-win scenario. I'm just not sure why folks on the complex side are so adamantly against it. Every time I've suggested it, there is the insistence that ALL the healers must change, no exceptions. That even if one (WHM) is left somewhat alone, it needs at least two more damage abilities and some interaction between them, etc. And if it somehow does stay the same, it MUST do less damage and be non-competitive with the other healers.

...when if we just leave one alone and change the other three, the complex side is already getting EFFECTIVELY everything they've asked for - alleviating their boredom and making healing "fun" again for them. But the camp as a whole seems to be ill content unless they get it ALL. And that's what I don't understand as that's what makes it no longer win-win.

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Fair enough?

Or, at least, sufficient as an explanation?

[Sebazy]

So about those personal attacks...

I think you're misunderstanding what he's saying. Language barrier thing perhaps?