What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Rulakir]

The single member of present day humanity who embodies Venat's ideology and methods most is unironically Ilberd Feare.

Not Thordan? Replaying HW I noticed quite a few similarities.

[Brinne]

She definitely overlaps heavily with both! But I think Thordan lacked the judgmental factor towards the Ishgardian people specifically that Ilberd and Venat shared, and his focused was defense of his perception of his nation from an outside threat. Ilberd thought the Ala Mhigans were weak and ruthlessly, actively sacrificed them en masse for the "greater good." He also managed to ultimately achieve everything he wanted, too, which is hilarious.

[CrownySuccubus]

It's really odd that the villains suit Venats ideology far better than any of the protagonists....

As I said, the problem with the ideology always comes down to: "At what magical point do you draw the line?"

That's why, in fiction which adheres to this philosophy, the difference between hero and villain is "The line that least inconveniences the main characters/audience/players."

[Lauront]

"Yeah. But it'll be on our own, unique terms."

By Forging Ahead.

Yeah, everything about that philosophical trapping has a very "fatalist" outlook to it

I am eagerly awaiting for them to turn fate into the final (?) big bad. They already have the asset models in 7R, after all.

Venat's "love" for mankind feels a lot like an abusive parent who "accepts" their child while doing nothing to actually show that love.

I was looking up a line in Japanese and stumbled across this. Whereas I felt creeped out by this "personal" connection, after my character's hand was more or less narratively forced into helping her with her scheme apparently some people enjoyed it and would've liked more of it.

The insistence on the "love" angle was another part of what made Venat's writing so insecure, and the sense that deep down, it knew that what it was trying was shaky and didn't work. And the hard overcompensation on it - especially because the technique of "NPC loves the WoL = popular NPC" has usually been very effective up until this point - led to a lot of us making connections towards the absolute cliches of abuse rhetoric and victim-blaming. Which I'm sure never occurred to the writers, but here we are.



The single member of present day humanity who embodies Venat's ideology and methods most is unironically Ilberd Feare.

I'm just impressed that they were able to dial it up even further in the Codex entry on her. And I agree, it's why this "Venat is an ancient" explanation Yoshi comes up just fails to convince me. We already had sundered antagonists think and act in very similar ways. The only difference is their narrative treatment and the scale of it. With that said, it appears to have convinced some players who, in spite of everything else we know of them, believe a genocide a day was just in their DNA.

[Theodric]

Venat's supposed 'love' hits differently to anyone who has escaped the cycle of abuse that comes with a manipulative parental figure. If you're still deeply enthralled then, yeah, you just sort of accept that there was 'no other way' and that you 'need to suffer for your own good'. The slightest bit of doubt or pushback is seen as completely unreasonable. Then comes the lying, the deflection, the gaslighting.

To really make up for Endwalker the game needs to find a way to retroactively dismantle and address Venat's numerous lies. Y'shtola's book could potentially be that hook - though I won't hold my breath. I just want the Ancients and Zodiark to be properly credited for their good deeds instead of everything being attributed to Hydaelyn through devious misdirection/missing context.

It's just too much of a stretch for the game to have the characters oppose oppression and cruelty at every turn but then turn around and downplay it because it's 'Venat'.

I'd love a storyline involving a crisis of faith where the Scions deal with their 'supreme deity' turning out to be anything but. Depending on how the Twelve are written - and if they end up being authentic deities with no ties to Venat - then they could potentially fill that void.

[Brinne]

It's really odd that the villains suit Venats ideology far better than any of the protagonists....

I've joked before that Venat is essentially an amalgamation of every major FFXIV antagonist in either worldview or action, save perhaps Nidhogg. Gaius van "conflict breeds the strong, and only the strong survive" Baelsar from ARR, Ilberd "my people are unacceptably weak and thus I must sacrifice them to shape a greater world/nation" Feare, Thordan "erasing history and truth is actually good if it preserves the world order that benefits my cause" VII, Zenos "we alone determine our own purpose in this empty, meaningless universe, and my purpose is stalking the Spark that is the WoL" yae Galvus, and, of course, Emet "I judge the current state of humanity to be insufficient to rise to the task of protecting the world, therefore I will wipe them out in favor of a better one" Selch and Hermes "we must test humanity to ensure they're worthy of existence by subjecting them to mass death and suffering" Fandaniel.

Well, okay. She probably doesn't overlap much with Nidhogg or Themis, actually. Because Themis is a good boy who did nothing wrong.

[jameseoakes]

I've joked before that Venat is essentially an amalgamation of every major FFXIV antagonist in either worldview or action, save perhaps Nidhogg. Gaius van "conflict breeds the strong, and only the strong survive" Baelsar from FFXIV, Ilberd "my people are unacceptably weak and thus I must sacrifice them to shape a greater world/nation" Feare, Thordan "erasing history and truth is actually good if it preserves the world order that benefits my cause" VII, Zenos "we alone determine our own purpose in this empty, meaningless universe, and my purpose is stalking the Spark that is the WoL" yae Galvus, and, of course, Emet "I judge the current state of humanity to be insufficient to rise to the task of protecting the world, therefore I will wipe them out in favor of a better one" Selch and Hermes "we must test humanity to ensure they're worthy of existence by subjecting them to mass death and suffering" Fandaniel.

Well, okay. She probably doesn't overlap much with Nidhogg or Themis, actually. Because Themis is a good boy who did nothing wrong.

I mean your take is really spot on

[CrownySuccubus]

I am eagerly awaiting for them to turn fate into the final (?) big bad. They already have the asset models in 7R, after all.

I mean, that'll just be a physical embodiment of the time travel plots of 5.0 and 6.0.

"We'll totally fight Fate when it's something inconvenient to us, but completely embrace it when it's a Fate we find agreeable."

[Theodric]

I mean, that'll just be a physical embodiment of the time travel plots of 5.0 and 6.0.

"We'll totally fight Fate when it's something inconvenient to us, but completely embrace it when it's a Fate we find agreeable."

That's what worries me about the upcoming 'conflict of values'. Will we actually see the protagonists stick to their supposed 'values' or will they continue to embrace the very things they are supposedly against so long as it benefits them?

I'm fully expecting the side we oppose to be written in such a way as to be pushed into a corner like the Ascians or the Garleans. Forced to do desperate things in order to survive whilst the protagonists have every plot convenience in their favour that allows them to avoid situations where they go too far.

If nothing else, I can't say I'm looking forward to more lectures from the likes of Alphinaud.

[Xirean]

I just really hope the game doesn't do a timeloop to have the WoL become Azem. Worst ending possible and the fact it's possible scares me.