The trouble with Job redesigns

[Flana]

At the very least the Summoner redesign missing the point is on-brand for SE. They've been actively designing against the base of the class since Stormblood introduced Demi summons and completely broke everything. The rework deserves special scorn because it destroyed the old job while solving none of the problems and just loading them into the new one. Actions can still ghost, even if carbuncle has been demoted to a glorified shield bot that doesn't even work for half your rotation since it's dead. Demi AI is still garbage and despite needing a target to be summoned they can just decide to follow you around wasting autos unless you force their AI to target with an attack. The entire thing is somehow shallow while still being infested with all the problems Demi summoning created.

MCH got the same boat of a rework reducing the class to a shallow core, but that is also because SE won't let MCH do what its build is supposed to be while being pidgeonholed by its role. They either need to abandon the phys range limitations and actually let mch be a a selfish skilled DPS like SAM or BLM, or ditch the idea and build it like the other Phys Ranged and let it have more group utility. Right now it is stuck in the middle and not able to deliver on either in a satisfying way.

[Dyvid]

MCH got the same boat of a rework reducing the class to a shallow core, but that is also because SE won't let MCH do what its build is supposed to be while being pidgeonholed by its role. They either need to abandon the phys range limitations and actually let mch be a a selfish skilled DPS like SAM or BLM, or ditch the idea and build it like the other Phys Ranged and let it have more group utility. Right now it is stuck in the middle and not able to deliver on either in a satisfying way.

Well this bring up another core issue we are dealing, battle system design change that came about in 4.0. On the surface the idea looked okay. Within each DPS Role you would have a scale from pure DPS to DPS that buffs party. Now however we are at a point where you can't tell what each role is suppose to do anymore.

Physical ranged DPS attack foes from a distance. They excel at inflicting sustained damage, and also provide support for companions.
-Yet MCH doesn't provide anything other than a bubble that other non PRDPS can provide. Other NON PRDPS can support companions as well as if not better.

Magical ranged DPS attack foes using a variety of arcane arts. Movement is restricted by casting times, but they excel at inflicting high burst damage.
-SMN is a fine example against this term. Almost their entire skill set is instant cast giving incredible movement with no DPS penalty. Even RDM is required to cast 50% of the time.

Melee DPS are close-range attackers. Focused on combos and careful positioning to inflict the maximum amount of damage.
-While true, encounter where mobs take up half the arena make this easier and negate the point of positional needs.

If we are to expect new DPS jobs along with redesigns in the future, SE first must retool how the system works and how each role within the system is supposed to contribute.

[Saimeren]

Magical ranged DPS attack foes using a variety of arcane arts. Movement is restricted by casting times, but they excel at inflicting high burst damage.
-SMN is a fine example against this term. Almost their entire skill set is instant cast giving incredible movement with no DPS penalty. Even RDM is required to cast 50% of the time.

This honestly doesn't work in a game like FFXIV which relies so heavily on mechanic based fights. Fights where you might have to move every few seconds to avoid attacks. This kind of gameplay works great in other MMO's like WoW, GW2 and SWTOR because their fights allow you to stand still and hard cast. This is the exact reason a lot of the community state that Black Mage is one of the harder jobs to play in this game. Throw it into WoW and it would be a relatively easy job to play just like WoW's mage. (Granted with a slightly more involved rotation.)

The other reason this doesn't work is because every job deals roughly similar-ish damage. Or at least has jobs in the different roles that can deal as much damage as the casters.

The whole point of a "caster" is that they're supposed to deal the most damage out of any dps. The drawback is that they're immobile and have to spend some time casting. Their damage also comes at the end of their cast rather than the beginning/ right after the button push like Melee.

The benefit of a Melee is that they can still deal 100% of their damage while moving. They have mobility but give up a bit of damage.

Anymore now a days everyone wants to deal the exact same damage as the next guy, so all roles now have to deal big burst damage. This gives "casters" a significant disadvantage with no gain over the mobile Melee.

Having Magic damage dealers with instant casts makes perfect sense in the modern day of gaming. Unless they're going to nerf Melee damage to compensate their Mobility vs the casters cast times, I don't see this trend changing.

And if in the next expansion Summoner's get Leviathan, Shiva and Lord Thunder Bread and their rotations are long hard casts, I'm willing to bet that you'll see a significant drop off in the amount of people playing Summoner. People like mobility. It's fun. Take that away and you'll see the same trend as Black Mage.

[Dyvid]

This honestly doesn't work in a game like FFXIV which relies so heavily on mechanic based fights. Fights where you might have to move every few seconds to avoid attacks. This kind of gameplay works great in other MMO's like WoW, GW2 and SWTOR because their fights allow you to stand still and hard cast. This is the exact reason a lot of the community state that Black Mage is one of the harder jobs to play in this game. Throw it into WoW and it would be a relatively easy job to play just like WoW's mage. (Granted with a slightly more involved rotation.)

The other reason this doesn't work is because every job deals roughly similar-ish damage. Or at least has jobs in the different roles that can deal as much damage as the casters.

The whole point of a "caster" is that they're supposed to deal the most damage out of any dps. The drawback is that they're immobile and have to spend some time casting. Their damage also comes at the end of their cast rather than the beginning/ right after the button push like Melee.

The benefit of a Melee is that they can still deal 100% of their damage while moving. They have mobility but give up a bit of damage.

Anymore now a days everyone wants to deal the exact same damage as the next guy, so all roles now have to deal big burst damage. This gives "casters" a significant disadvantage with no gain over the mobile Melee.

Having Magic damage dealers with instant casts makes perfect sense in the modern day of gaming. Unless they're going to nerf Melee damage to compensate their Mobility vs the casters cast times, I don't see this trend changing.

And if in the next expansion Summoner's get Leviathan, Shiva and Lord Thunder Bread and their rotations are long hard casts, I'm willing to bet that you'll see a significant drop off in the amount of people playing Summoner. People like mobility. It's fun. Take that away and you'll see the same trend as Black Mage.

Yea, but it's worked for 9 years now. We have done it for 9 years. We have had no issue with casting for 9 years. BLM, which is consider the heaviest in casting has ranked in the top five DPS year after year.

[stellahawke]

Having Magic damage dealers with instant casts makes perfect sense in the modern day of gaming.

yes it does make sense but in moderation and not there entire kit. old smn was still super mobile when ya needed it and not for the whole time. old smn had the 4 pet attacks, phoenix, swiftcast, and ruin 4 and ruin 2. and we had ogcds to fill inside alot of those so its not just standing around till the next gcd is up. old smn had enough movement to do any content without being in terms of a physicals range. classes can have movement but they can be smart about how they implement it this current movement system. this is why sense the current smn is not like any of the other casters and is a black sheep in the caster catagory cause its does not follow the definition all the other casters have to follow. which is a class that has cast times. redmage still has cast times. and the instacast is ok sense the other system for the class is rng based and they play hand in hand. blackmage is a full on century cannon but still has decent amount of movement keep some uptime.