The trouble with Job redesigns

[Hezhi]

2. Planning for continued growth of the job - This is REALLY starting to hurt the game with how they've decided to do this. SMN is the big example of this. They work towards cutting down some of the job growth in order to prepare for further growth in the future. It's the equivalent of taking a job with a lower salary but a slightly higher pay ceiling. Sure, you have some room to improve, but some of that growth is artificial it's "growth" that you had already obtained. This is the reason why so many of the jobs that were reworked ultimately feel like they were neutered, it's because they reworked them with a plan to grow them further in later expansions. Given how they're stretching 50-60 levels worth of job growth over 90 levels though, people feel the slow growth and it's only going to get worse if they continue to do this incorrectly.

And that'd be fine if they didn't demonstrate that they're incapable of providing satisfactory growth to jobs. We're being forced into lower pay labor with a lower pay ceiling! Look at the absolute state of healers since Stormblood, people assumed they'd build on the newly pruned jobs, they did nothing of the sort, we've been spamming Glare + Aero for 5 years, it's pathetic.
Also what you're saying about Shinten pisses me off because it's one of the likely changes they could be planning to make lol.

[Picker]

Monk and Summoner is the first time the entire player base is like “wtf is this”, which is a little concerning as those reworks happened at the same time; every other job has slowly evolved into what we have now (for better or worse). I think they should put a hold on new jobs and refine/iterate with more creativity. With the way the raids are going with like 100% uptime for all jobs and 2 minute burst windows the job design feels trapped. And I’m someone who loves the current tier and direction of the game.

I’ve played since beta but only did current tier savage in shb, so I’m no expert.

[Raikai]

So, every time they have done a job redesign something feels off. MCH, MNK, SMN just don't have the same flavor as they did before the redesign.

The first question that must be asked is who is the job redesign for? Is it for the player base that has been playing the job? Is it for a new player base that may or may not play?

Why redesign a job in the first place? Technical issues? Design? Or just plain popularity?

The problem is with each redesign they fail to improve upon the core mechanics to that job. MNK was keeping your GCD at 1.5 and positionals. SMN was managing Pets, Aetherflow/Trance, and Spells. MCH was Ammo, Turrets, and Heat post 4.0.

This is important because they could have kept the stuff mains enjoyed and expanded into a direct the developers wanted the job to go. Instead, they chose to remove all aspects of the jobs which in turn alienates the core players of the job.

Well, the thing I know is that I enjoy post ShB Machinist way more in a visual/fantasy sense. With the tools and the robot it actually now feels like a true machinist as opposed to a gunner that occasionaly uses gadgets.

Now, on the other hand, the mechanical/gameplay aspect lacks depth, but that has nothing to do with the previous point. Afaik they could rework a job's theme into something as bland as unseasoned chicken but playing marvelously well, with an accessible skill floor and high skill ceiling.

[Hanayumi]

Think id be alright with all the simplifing of jobs if they added like skill augmentations or skill trees later on. At least that way kinda future proofs jobs a bit better rather than the constant snipping skills out, just so they can add skills in for an expansion...

[SieyaM]

I don't know, people really didn't like bow mage so they changed that back to a regular bard, so sometimes they seem to appease most people. Obviously not everyone was going to be please by SMN rework, and there are a few very vocal people who will curse it with their dying breath because for some reason it is that important to them. I guess in the end you can just talk about how magnificent old SMN was and how much of an incredible player you are for being hardcore and getting it and finishing savage and ultimate.

[Dyvid]

I don't know, people really didn't like bow mage so they changed that back to a regular bard, so sometimes they seem to appease most people. Obviously not everyone was going to be please by SMN rework, and there are a few very vocal people who will curse it with their dying breath because for some reason it is that important to them. I guess in the end you can just talk about how magnificent old SMN was and how much of an incredible player you are for being hardcore and getting it and finishing savage and ultimate.

Except BRD was first a non caster, then added a caster timer, then removed it after backlash. Another key difference was BRD didn't have it's entire skillset wiped clean during 3.XX series. But since you brought up BRD that is a good example as to what I mean by keeping true to the original job design while moving in a new direction. 4.0 added the song gauge and song rotation. It still is highly mobile, kept most of it's original WSs / Abilities, and continues to use songs to buff the party.

[stellahawke]

I don't know, people really didn't like bow mage so they changed that back to a regular bard, so sometimes they seem to appease most people. Obviously not everyone was going to be please by SMN rework, and there are a few very vocal people who will curse it with their dying breath because for some reason it is that important to them. I guess in the end you can just talk about how magnificent old SMN was and how much of an incredible player you are for being hardcore and getting it and finishing savage and ultimate.

people are like that cause old smn catered to that group of players. the devs are the ones that changed who they wanted the audiance. its only right when the devs do something to mess with an established fanbase. and there will always be 2 sides. just look at what happend to sam and ninja. even people who do like the new smn do think the class is lacking in a lot of ways just the people who like old smn are more vocal about it.

[butchersblock]

I don't know, people really didn't like bow mage so they changed that back to a regular bard, so sometimes they seem to appease most people. Obviously not everyone was going to be please by SMN rework, and there are a few very vocal people who will curse it with their dying breath because for some reason it is that important to them. I guess in the end you can just talk about how magnificent old SMN was and how much of an incredible player you are for being hardcore and getting it and finishing savage and ultimate.

I love how people like you always water down players wanting some fun and complexity in their jobs to this kind of shit. Am I supposed to feel guilty that I want a little bit more engagement from my jobs? This has never been about bragging, and you're shaming people for wanting something better

[CelestiCer]

I love how people like you always water down people wanting some fun and complexity in their jobs to this kind of shit. Am I supposed to feel guilty that I want a little bit more engagement from my jobs? This has never been about bragging, and you're shaming people for wanting something better

Objection, facts. Also, I can't believe Fun-Shaming is actually a thing... in a game... this is still a game right .__.;? pinch me

[LeonKeyh]

I don't know, people really didn't like bow mage so they changed that back to a regular bard, so sometimes they seem to appease most people. Obviously not everyone was going to be please by SMN rework, and there are a few very vocal people who will curse it with their dying breath because for some reason it is that important to them. I guess in the end you can just talk about how magnificent old SMN was and how much of an incredible player you are for being hardcore and getting it and finishing savage and ultimate.

The fact of the matter is that people are fighting against the continual homogenization. Just because some people didn't like it whenever they did "something different" doesn't mean that doing something different isn't the right thing.

Having 19 jobs that play the same with tweaks to the theme is not the right way to design an MMO. Having 19 jobs which all play differently make it more likely that somebody will find a job that they enjoy. IDEALLY ALL jobs should have a low skill floor and a high skill ceiling. THAT is good design, that is what keeps people coming back. But, the next best thing would be to have jobs with a low skill floor for the people that want that and jobs with a high skill ceiling for people who want that. Those jobs with the high skill ceiling are on the endangered list at this point.

If SE isn't going to keep complex jobs for the people who enjoy complex jobs, they sure as hell better put skill expression in all of the jobs or they're going to lose people. There's nothing wrong at all with people enjoying being challenged whenever they play games. That's _fun_. There are plenty of things wrong with:

1. Shaming them for it and claiming that they're just being "hardcore" "elitists" and wanting to brag
2. Asking for their gameplay to be taken away so that you can enjoy it more.