Just remove healers.

[Mortex]

People have admitted, recently in these forums, to being afraid of my "opinions."
An accomplishment you'll never achieve.

Bye!

To be fair even I’m afraid I lose my last remaining brain cells that I have left from playing healer when I read your posts. I had too buy 2 new keyboard last expansion when I was a healer main because my 1 button broke spamming my dmg kit even as a astro.

[Amenara]

...

You know anecdotal evidence means nothing when there are actual numbers that disagree with you right?

Edit: I should have just ignored them when they said synced to level 60 because that data is absolutely worthless.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Debating if I want to post this but whatever There's no harm in doing this:

snip

You're picking a level range where most jobs are not in their most balanced state when being pit against each other for whatever reason. Basically you've excluded DNC's Flourish, Devilment, Technical Step & Buff, Esprit Generation, Fan Dance III & IV, Tilana, and Starfall Dance off the calculation.

But sure, let's humor the board a little bit more. I'll do a 30s simulation against two targets at level 60.

Calculating SGE's is simple. You will E.Dosis one of the target because it's a slight gain at 350p vs 320p assuming they tick for its full duration. I will also add two blasts of Phlegmas into this short 30s window. Within 12 GCDs, a SGE would've dealt a total of 350+(495*2)+(320*9) = 4,220p of damage.350+(561*2)+(320*9) = 4,352p of damage.

Moving on to DNC. Assuming they enter a combat by initiating standard step, their first GCD will be a 'dead GCD' as it deals no damage. Their finisher damage comes out at butt end of 2nd GCD at a total of 900p damage (720p first target, 180p 2nd target). After that it's a stream of 1-2-1-2 combo, sprinkled with procs if they lights up. I'll take your calculated average potency per GCD with added nuance: standard step personal buff at 5%, which bumps their average potency per GCD up to 153p. With this in mind, a DNC would've dealt a total of 900+(306*10) = 3,960p of damage.

Current figure = 4,352p vs 3,960p in 2 target situation

Oh great! SGE wins! So I guess you're proven correct, then? Not quite, we're not done yet You've forgotten that DNC, as a physical ranged DPS has a not-so-negligible auto attacks unlike spellcasters', which is practically a 70p-80p of damage every 3s vs whatever they're targeting. We'll take the middle ground of 75p per auto attacks. In the span of 30s they would've attacked 9 times (not 10 because you're not auto attacking on your first dance steps). This adds additional 675*1.05 = 709p of total personal damage dealt a DNC dishes out which shifts the figure to:

4,352p vs 4,669p in 2 target situation

Yet, this is just lv60 AND without accounting the buff the DNC gave to their partner. Combined with those additional numbers, there's just no way a SGE can outdps a DNC, at 60 or 90. If you exclude standard finisher entirely from this calculation, the DNC will come out slightly ahead of the SGE at (292*12)+(75*10) = 4,254p of total damage dealt, slightly short of 98p.

A bad DPS getting outdamaged is an entirely different matter, but at least you and your trolling keeps the thread bumped up. Stay delusional.

EDIT: Had to scratch the wrong values but point still stands. There are better answers in form of log snippets few posts after mine though.

[QooEr]

guys instead of gigabraining math or whatever you can just...... post data

https://prnt.sc/W6zAZlghhCbT

[Silverbane]

Debating if I want to post this but whatever There's no harm in doing this:
You're picking a level range where most jobs are not in their most balanced state when being pit against each other for whatever reason.

Because the character I was on could do S-S-S on with both classes. And I think mid-level matters because that's common in Duty Roulette and important to new players.
But feel free to run the numbers for any level you choose.

But sure, let's humor the board a little bit more. I'll do a 30s simulation against two targets at level 60.

Two targets isn't the right analysis. A good trash mob pull has more than two mobs, and accordingly the single-target effects that give DNC an advantage have less effect.

Calculating SGE's is simple. You will E.Dosis one of the target because it's a slight gain at 350p vs 320p ... [and] two blasts of Phlegmas into this short 30s window. Within 12 GCDs, a SGE would've dealt a total of 350+(495*2)+(320*9) = 4,220p of damage.

Not sure where you get 495 for each Phlegma from: SE's SGE guide says it has "a potency of 400 for the first enemy, and 30% less" -- 280 -- " for all remaining enemies," which is 680 on 2 targets and 960 on 3. So the SGE number should be 4590. And against 3 targets, and skipping the E.Dosis, SGE gets (480*10)+(960*2) = 6720.

Moving on to DNC. ... Their finisher damage [is] a total of 900p damage (720p first target, 180p 2nd target). After that it's a stream of 1-2-1-2 combo, sprinkled with procs if they lights up. I'll take your calculated average potency per GCD with added nuance: standard step personal buff at 5%, which bumps their average potency per GCD up to 153p. With this in mind, a DNC would've dealt a total of 900+(306*10) = 3,960p of damage.

Current figure = 4,220p vs 3,960p in 2 target situation

Oh great! SGE wins! ... [But] DNC, as a physical ranged DPS has a not-so-negligible auto attacks ... we'll take the middle ground of 75p per auto attacks. In the span of 30s they would've attacked 9 times (not 10 because you're not auto attacking on your first dance steps). This adds additional 675*1.05 = 709p of total personal damage dealt a DNC dishes out which shifts the figure to:

4,220p vs 4,669p in 2 target situation

Except you undervalued Phlegma, so it's 4590 vs. 4669. That difference is in the noise.

Worse than that, the balance shifts for even just one more mob.
For three mobs, SGE rises to 6720, and DNC rises to only 6380, because the main damage of Standard step is only one target and auto-attack is only one target. 4 mobs it's 8850 SGE to 8089 DNC. This is a consequence of the large contribution single-target effects make to DNC.

Combined with those additional numbers, there's just no way a SGE can outdps a DNC, at 60 or 90.

Except that using your numbers, SGE wins over DNC for three or more mobs.
So "no way" is a bit of an overstatement, wouldn't you say?

Why did you choose two mobs, anyway? Is that a typical trash pull for you?
Didn't you realize that having only two mobs gives maximum advantage to DNC?
And the E.Dosis was DPS-negative when there are three or more?

Anyway, thanks for the analysis.
Based on it I will refine my previous statement:
A SGE can out-DPS a DNC when doing AoE attacks on three or more mobs.
Now get out there and do it!

[Silverbane]

guys instead of gigabraining math or whatever you can just...... post data
https://prnt.sc/W6zAZlghhCbT

Two limitations of data like that:

• It depends on the skill of the players (like, do those SGE even know how good SGE is at 3+ mob AoE?)
• It's an aggregate that include single-target (e.g. boss) combat, and we're talking specifically AoE against multiple mobs.

[Martynek]

snippet of completely false information and headcanons

Yeah uh sorry mate but there's one little thing you haven't considered
POTENCIES ARE NOT EQUAL
Potency x on job y is not equal to potency x on job z.
Each job has different modifiers applied based on a mixture of upkeep buffs, innate traits, soul crystal stat modifiers, and damage scalar from main attribute (which is different depending on role).

Look at these funny statistics:

https://prnt.sc/W6zAZlghhCbT

There is no amount of cope you can post that will make this untrue.
Healers do less damage than each other role, and nothing you can say will change that.

Continued delusional rambling

You can see the spread based on skill levels right there in the image, I mean if you're so smart you clearly know how to read a goddamn graph right?
Also the majority of damage dealt in a dungeon is dealt to mobs rather than bosses so logically jobs with better aoe potential will shine regardless of the brief moments where you're hitting a single target.

[Silverbane]

Yeah uh sorry mate but there's one little thing you haven't considered
POTENCIES ARE NOT EQUAL.

Learn to read for comprehension:
I determined the damage per potency experimentally, and for my SGE (4.1 d/p) and my DNC (3.9 d/p) they were within the margin of error.
It's right in the post, up at that top.

If the d/p for the two classes had been [substantially] different, I would have scaled by the ratio.

I suggest you let smarter, more rational people, like Rein_eon_Osborne, represent your side of the argument.
You're just an embarrassment to it.

[Amenara]

If you trot on down to that forbidden website and look at the dungeon logs from the sage that was top ranked you will notice one of their 100 parses had a dnc in it. Take that for what you will for real data.

[WaxSw]

1-2-3-1-2-3 excitment

It IS much more more exciting, not only gives a bit of room for failure but also those 1-2-3 combos have something else attached to them, be it resource generation/different effects that tied into each other/positionals/branching paths, those tools are far more engaging than spam 1 button over 100 times per instance

The whole combat fast changing is nonsense, there is no fight in the game that changes wildly from AoE to ST outside very short specific scenarios and add phases and there is no extra thought or complexity in changing from "standard single target nuke that does not have any consequence" to "standard AoE nuke that does not have any consequence".

Not even gonna comment on the intelligence one, just gonna say that thinking so highly of changing from spamming 1 to spamming 2 speaks way more about you than me.

Outparse and healing dungeons

Out-parsed, yes, out-damaged no and its impossible as proven by logs:

(I'm just showing normal mode as it has way more AoE than any raid)

As anyone can see even at the 95th percentile a Sage which boast the highest dps in dungeons is significantly less damaging than a dps on the same range, in fact as shown in the following image one would have to go as low as as 40th percentile (definitively not "good" players) to see a dps comparable to what a 95th percentile Sage does:


Dungeons runs are so absurdly undertuned that tanks can solo them so there is barely anything to heal and there is a large amount of examples of Exs and above that do not require healers so the whole "watching the tank bar go low" argument fails by game design, even in the encounters with significant damage (super high end basically) due to the scripted nature of healing in the game there is no variation (and as such the healing gameplay is lacking being more a puzzle than actual fast thinking) and no adjustment bar "this guy fucked up the mechanic" and in those scenarios the fuck ups are usually non healable instant deaths, as healer healing is only fun the first clear, past that is mindless repetition with a bland kit that does not even require even a 10% of my GCDs and not even a 40% of my whole gameplay actions. As example of how fucked this is here is a P4S P2 log as Sage (which has the highest hps requirements of the current tier):



Dosis alone was almost 60% of all I did in the fight and the whole healing not even reached 25% of my total casts and not even 1% of my total GCDs even tough I was the healer healing the most in that encounter

Ever done that? If not, why not?
If so, where you bored by it?

As shown previously, I've done that in probably a variety of encounters far wider than most of the people, Where I bored? Let's say that mindlessly pressing the same button 144 times is not precisely what could be described as good MMO gameplay

Why you enjoy it argument and insults

There was no argument to begin with I was just surprised and found funny the intellectual dishonesty using dyskrasia as example of engaging gameplay in Sage is and thought no one could be saying it seriously. If you find it complex and engaging more power to you but as said previously it says a lot about you

Let alone how I said "no one is this dense" as insult (if you consider it one) where you straight up said "Understanding that and adapting to it on the fly takes some intelligence you don't seem to have."

So why don't you ask questions like the above? Are you afraid of the answers?
And why are you so desperate to convince other people that

In the message I replied to there was not a single question so I don't know what you want me to answer but...

different values

I'll answer this:
First I do not think that lack of brain is a requirement for enjoying the job, however in this game I do think that outside very small niches like optimization the majority of players that enjoy it are simply extremely innexperienced.

There is a multitude of reasons but they can be summed up with:
-Extremely bland kit with only "apparent" complexity
-Multitude of redundant tools
-Scripted game design
-Lack of healing requirements make healers barely necessary if they are to begin with

Healing for the less skilled can be sometimes fun as they do not realize the true power of their tools, do not know the standard healing playstyle or simply do not read their tooltips but past that point it becomes a role about doing a mindless, extremely repetitive task over and over to fulfill a job that may not even be necessary or impactful which is quite the opposite of engaging.