The Ancients still deserved better, after everything

[PawPaw]

Zodiark's success was due more to the fact that the 2/3 of the population that sacrificed themselves were no longer using creation magicks. As for 'equivalent exchange' ... where in our long history of dealing with Primals have we ever encountered one that did not demand more Aether?

Remind me, when did Zodiark demand and require more aether in the 12k years since the Sundering? It's not coming to mind for some reason...

[Fiel_Tana]

They could have, but how long would it take? Would they have enough time? Would the one person to ever attempt it, let alone succeed (arguably considering the outcome), cooperate with them?

Well, a sundered Zodiark bought 12,000 years before he was killed, so they'd have had a LONG time.

Who is this one person you mention? There'd be no reason they'd only send one. Also Dynamis wasn't unheard of, just understudied but again, they'd have plenty of time (and now incentive) to do so.

[DPZ2]

I'd say daily, but more like hourly reminder that Zodiark as a blood god has been consistently debunked throughout ShB and EW. I realize it's somehow become widely accepted headcanon despite all evidence to the contrary, but I can't take anyone seriously who says it. Especially as one of those in this thread also threw out the "you didn't pay attention to the story" line. You're not only showing yourself ignorant of the lore, but that you're not worth engaging in any good faith.

I have never used the term 'blood god', nor do I believe that Zodiark is anything more than a primal created by a people with much better focus on what they wanted, as opposed to what the populations of Eorzea can come up with. "Feed me" was a joke, given the Nature of Primals as explained over and over (and over) again.

That being said, you've brought up several things that I would greatly enjoy reading from your masterful perspective on the lore.

1) Who created Zodiark?
2) What were the conditions imposed on Zodiark at creation?
3) Who was the 14th member who refused to be involved in Zodiark's creation?
4) Was Elidibus the 'core' of the created Zodiark or a 'rider' (as in a vehicle)?
5) How did the Ancients know exactly how many souls were necessary for the sacrifice?
6) What reasoning did they have that this would work in the first place?
7) Regardless of Venat's reasoning, how were 12 Ancients able to create a second primal that was more powerful than one created using the aether of 1/2 of the population?

8) Why didn't either Emet-Selch or Hythlodaeus (with their restored memories) condemn us for the destruction of the Ancients?

Assume the story as written, not anyone's head canon or 'what abouts' in your explanations.

[anhaato]

7) Regardless of Venat's reasoning, how were 12 Ancients able to create a second primal that was more powerful than one created using the aether of 1/2 of the population?

8) Why didn't either Emet-Selch or Hythlodaeus (with their restored memories) condemn us for the destruction of the Ancients?

You're so close to understanding the problem. So close yet so far.

I hit post limit for the day so I'll just add it in here.

7 and 8 are both explained by accepting that Venat was a Mary Sue. They used a fraction of the power to summon Hydaelyn, and yet she was strong enough to defeat Zodiark. Because reasons. Then when Emet comes back, one of the 3 who were tortured by her actions the MOST, after he regained his memories and was able to see what she actually did to his world... he's just like "aw man ya got me!" Just completely forgives her.

I'll tell you what the exact problem is.

It's bad writing.

[DPZ2]

You're so close to understanding the problem. So close yet so far.

State the exact problem if you know it. I've read any number of opinions in this thread, each driven by a different head canon. Your attempt at a response was as helpful as telling me to go watch "Moriarty the Patriot" again.

As I said earlier "Rinse, repeat. Again and again and again, through an unending set of parallel universes, including one where Meteion is never created, and the Ancients happily live to the conclusion of their civilization. Our story is not that story."

[Necrotica]

Daily reminder that the Ancients sacrificed 2/3 of their population to create and feed the meat shield Zodiark, and thought that by sacrificing more 'inconsequential' life they could get them back. What they based that assumption on, I have no idea. I doubt that Zodiark told them anything more than "feed me".

No matter how much life they planned to sacrifice to Zodiark it cannot compare to the uncountable billions killed by Venat through the sundering, shortening of lifespans, loss of ability to fight hunger, disease, etc. She created 14 hells where the people born into it did not even realized how damned they were.

[BubblyBoar]

You're so close to understanding the problem. So close yet so far.

I hit post limit for the day so I'll just add it in here.

7 and 8 are both explained by accepting that Venat was a Mary Sue. They used a fraction of the power to summon Hydaelyn, and yet she was strong enough to defeat Zodiark. Because reasons. Then when Emet comes back, one of the 3 who were tortured by her actions the MOST, after he regained his memories and was able to see what she actually did to his world... he's just like "aw man ya got me!" Just completely forgives her.

I'll tell you what the exact problem is.

It's bad writing.

I think you are misremembering something. Venat, even as a primal, WAS weaker than Zodiark. Never is it implied that she was stronger than him, ever, She, however, did defeat him because she became a primal specifically designed to do so. Not a primal that was stronger than Zodiark, but a primal designed to sunder him. She defeated Zodiark not because she was stronger than him, but because she essentially cheated in what was assumed a straight fight. It's like if a bear was fighting a human. The bear would totally win that fight. The bear is stronger than the human. But the human brought bear stopping traps and tools. The human didn't win because they are stronger than a bear. The human won by specifically debilitating the bear.

[TaleraRistain]

No one knows who created the Elpis flower, nor has anyone found research about its creation.

No proof in game, but I had a thought it may have been a former version of Hermes.

[TaleraRistain]

On that note, a side tangent. I wonder if Elidibus (or should I say Zodiark) originally just told them what he could do when asked, and ultimately left the decision up to the majority on whether or not they wanted to bring back those lost. Considering how Zodiark just wanted "the Salvation of the star", it's very likely he was willing to go along with whatever the majority decided to do. Had they decided to just rejuvenate the world and left those who had sacrificed themselves to form him stay dead, he likely would have accepted it as their (and his) will. Considering how he never really directly involved himself with us until the balance was at stake, it's possible that he himself set the "rules" on the various Calamity creations and told the rest of them when the world was okay for another one. Us pushing things too much towards light (with the combination of Ardbert's crew) forced his hand because he knew just how much damage it could cause the Source if the 8th Calamity kicked off there (and we heard how bad the damages were).

They kind of answered that in the stories

https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes.../sidestory_07/

"This was soon after Zodiark became the will of the star, and our Final Days were averted. The people were divided, unable to decide what to do with the future that now stretched out before them. Many wished to trade the new life which had sprung forth to reclaim those lost in sacrifice to Zodiark. No small number, however, insisted that the fate of our world should be entrusted to those selfsame freshly minted souls. All were at our wits' end.

At once, we saw it, shimmering. It poured out of Zodiark's breast, and resolved into the shape of a man. As he looked us over─mouths agape, no doubt─he gave what passed for an earnest smile.


"Fear...not... You will make...the right choice. And I will see it through."

[Lihtleita]

No one knows who created the Elpis flower, nor has anyone found research about its creation.

untrue, they know it was an ancient known for making other kinds of flowers, and it would have to filed with the bureau of the architect. no-one is specific in telling us because we're a nosy little gremlin running around doing blue quests.