6.1 Kaiten Changes

[Kabooa]

I wasn't talking about resource management, I was talking about the spam fitting into the rotation, which it does for MCH, and for SAM it used to, but now doesn't.

Alternating between Gauss Round and Ricochet as opposed to just spamming a single button has nothing to do with resource management either.

You brought up Kenki in your post and then proceeded to point at Mach to say the following removal would make it equivalent.

It does not.

The removal of Reassemble is the only equalization. Everything else is a wrong comparison, as if Kaiten needed anymore elevation for its status.

I'll illustrate further.

This is becauase Kaitens removal hasn't changed Samurai's rotation by a significant degree. You replace Kaiten with Shinten with a 4:5 ratio. Despite what it may seem like, you are still generating Kenki -and Kenki is ultimately what is used to use Hissatsu abilties-. You are fundamentally generating your use of Hissatsu through your rotation.

With Machinist, you are generating "Ammo" passively (As the Gauss/Richochet dichotomy is basically the modernization of what used to be their ammo system). You also generate them through hypercharge. Removing Hypercharge (I'll assume you meant the removal of the synergy instead, because that's the most generous way to view that) does not remove Ammo generation. It just slows it down.

This is the fundamental difference - Kenki and thus any ability using it is fundamentally tied to using your standard GCD rotation. You cannot use them without pushing the ABCs.

Ammo isn't. Ammo is fundamentally a wait-and-recharge system, with one additional way to speed up its recharge rate. Not only that, the actual variety in the OGCDs you have is effectively non-existent. Because they exist on different charges, and because they are simply damage OGCDs, you just press them in every scenario. This isn't even a shallow amount of choice like one could attempt to argue with Kaiten.

This is why you do not equalize the field by attempting to remove Wildfire and Hypercharge and consolidating Richochet into Gauss Round. It doesn't put Machinist on the same level of Samurai - They're basically already the same, except Samurai gets Reassemble as a trait.

You are attempting to conflate one arbitrary synergy (Ammo and Hypercharge) with the Situational Skill of a Resource Conflict system. Simply put - that does not work.

[cjbeagle]

You brought up Kenki in your post and then proceeded to point at Mach to say the following removal would make it equivalent.

It does not.

The removal of Reassemble is the only equalization. Everything else is a wrong comparison, as if Kaiten needed anymore elevation for its status.

I'll try to articulate more clearly to see if that helps.

In ST and AOE situations, MCH uses both Gauss Round and Ricochet during their Overheat window - 2 OGCDs.

In ST and AOE situations, SAM used to use both Shinten and Kaiten or Kyuten and Kaiten, respectively - 2 OGCDs.

Without Kaiten, SAM only has Shinten to spam in ST and only Kyuten to spam in AOE - 1 OGCD regardless of the situation.

For MCH, that'd be like if they merged Gauss Round and Ricochet into a single OGCD - 1 OGCD regardless of the situation.



MCH can only spam Gauss Round and Ricochet during Overheart - they're woven between Heat Blasts during Overheat - they're part of the rotation.

SAM used to weave Kaiten prior to Iaijutsu and Ogi Namikiri - it was part of the rotation - Shinten isn't, so without Kaiten, SAM OGCDs are no longer part of the rotation.

For MCH, to achieve that level of rotation agnosticism, you'd have to be able to spend heat on Heat Blasts whenever you want since that's what enables the OGCD spam - like how you can spam Shinten whenever you want, and to do that, you'd have to remove all mechanical limitations (Hypercharge) as well as mechanical optimizations (Wildfire).

[Kabooa]

MCH can only spam Gauss Round and Ricochet during Overheart - they're woven between Heat Blasts during Overheat - they're part of the rotation.

SAM used to weave Kaiten prior to Iaijutsu and Ogi Namikiri - it was part of the rotation - Shinten isn't, so without Kaiten, SAM OGCDs are no longer part of the rotation.

For MCH, to achieve that level of rotation agnosticism, you'd have to be able to spend heat on Heat Blasts whenever you want since that's what enables the OGCD spam - like how you can spam Shinten however you want, and to do that, you'd have to remove all mechanical limitations (Hypercharge) as well as mechanical optimizations (Wildfire).

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how Machinist functions.

Mach can spam Gauss and Richochet at any point, because it is a cooldown with charge system. You technically do not even have to spend any of those charges during Overheat - You do, primarily to avoid any chance of overcapping, but you can only generate 75 seconds worth of the 90 second cap.

Gauss and Richochet do not interact with wildfire in any form.

If it weren't for the macro delay, you could quite literally macro Gauss and Richochet to every single GCD, and you'd see almost no performance difference in how Machinist operates. You cannot do this with Shinten because Hissatsu is ultimately a resouce based selection of actions, and the use of its resource for Shinten removes the use of it for other actions, shallow as that selection may be. That alone should tell you how little Gauss and Richochet matter from a mechanical standpoint.

I'll try to articulate more clearly to see if that helps.

Without Kaiten, SAM only has Shinten to spam in ST and only Kyuten to spam in AOE - 1 OGCD regardless of the situation.

For MCH, that'd be like if they merged Gauss Round and Ricochet into a single OGCD - 1 OGCD regardless of the situation..

I want to address this separately.

Mach only has one situation - Is there an enemy to shoot? You use both OGCDs with no real thought about any of the other circumstances. There are, perhaps, a handful of scenarios through the thousands in the game where you might not do this, but that's the current state of Machinist. Shoot first, and don't even ask questions later. One solution for almost every problem you face in the game.

This wouldn't change if you only had Gauss or Richochet. I talk some about decision trees and how individual abilities being added or removed might change the tree, in terms of length, depth, or width, but I am not exaggerating in any form where the decision tree for Mach doesn't change at all.

You might lament Samurai only having one spammable for various situations, but Machinist only has one answer for every situation. Push the damage button.

Spam Shinten too much and now you don't have the kenki to roll your last GCD into Backstep, enhanced windscar, and then dash back in. Misuse your Kenki and you can legitimately put yourself into a bad spot - Not as bad a spot as before, but still a bad spot.

As I say above, if it weren't for the macro delay, you could macro every gcd with Gauss and Richochet and see basically no change in your performance - And some might even see an improvement. I can't see how anything could be more "Rotation agnostic" than that.

[cjbeagle]

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how Machinist functions.

Mach can spam Gauss and Richochet at any point, because it is a cooldown with charge system. You technically do not even have to spend any of those charges during Overheat - You do, primarily to avoid any chance of overcapping, but you can only generate 75 seconds worth of the 90 second cap.

Gauss and Richochet do not interact with wildfire in any form.

If it weren't for the macro delay, you could quite literally macro Gauss and Richochet to every single GCD, and you'd see almost no performance difference in how Machinist operates. You cannot do this with Shinten because Hissatsu is ultimately a resouce based selection of actions, and the use of its resource for Shinten removes the use of it for other actions, shallow as that selection may be.

I don't have a misunderstanding, you're just being contrarian.

Yes, you can use Gauss Round and Ricochet without Hypercharge - the point is Hypercharge enables the spam.

Yes, you don't have to use Gauss Round or Ricochet during Hypercharge, but since you Hypercharge for burst windows, you do use them during Hypercharge. Just like you don't have to Hypercharge during Wildfire, but you do.

Gauss and Ricochet don't "interact" with Wildfire directly, but you Hypercharge when you Wildfire and you Heat Blast when you Hypercharge, and Heat Blast is what refreshes Gauss Round and Ricochet.

The point is, MCH OGCDs are woven as part of their rotation. You don't have to, but you do have to if you want to play optimally, just like with SAM, you never had to weave Kaiten at all, let alone before Iaijutsu or Ogi Namikiri, but you did have to if you wanted to play optimally.

I won't argue that weaving during Overheat is drastically less impactful than Kaiten was in terms of fitting into the rotation, but when we talk about rotations, optimization is assumed, so how impactful it is isn't the point - the point is what the ideal rotation looks like.

Your argument about not being able to spam Shinten because of Gyoten and Yaten is fair only if you're talking about resource management, but again, that isn't what I was talking about - I was talking about how OGCDs fit into the rotation (or not).

[cjbeagle]

Mach only has one situation - Is there an enemy to shoot? You use both OGCDs with no real thought about any of the other circumstances. There are, perhaps, a handful of scenarios through the thousands in the game where you might not do this, but that's the current state of Machinist. Shoot first, and don't even ask questions later. One solution for almost every problem you face in the game.

This wouldn't change if you only had Gauss or Richochet. I talk some about decision trees and how individual abilities being added or removed might change the tree, in terms of length, depth, or width, but I am not exaggerating in any form where the decision tree for Mach doesn't change at all.

You might lament Samurai only having one spammable for various situations, but Machinist only has one answer for every situation. Push the damage button.

Spam Shinten too much and now you don't have the kenki to roll your last GCD into Backstep, enhanced windscar, and then dash back in. Misuse your Kenki and you can legitimately put yourself into a bad spot - Not as bad a spot as before, but still a bad spot.

As I say above, if it weren't for the macro delay, you could macro every gcd with Gauss and Richochet and see basically no change in your performance - And some might even see an improvement. I can't see how anything could be more "Rotation agnostic" than that.

There isn't a meaningful choice for SAM either - with or without Kaiten - the only difference is we used to have 2 buttons to lend some variety and now we only have 1.

Meanwhile you say MCH only has one answer for any given situation: Push the damage button. Except it's damage buttonS - that's the entire point - they might use the same 2 in any given situation, but they have 2 in any given situation. SAM has a non-choice between Shinten and Kyuten, but they only have 1 in any given situation.

If you want to argue non-choices then a better comparison would be to say if they merged Gauss Round with Ricochet and also merged Shinten with Kyuten, but we weren't talking about non-choices between ST rotations vs AOE rotations, we were talking about the variety of OGCDs used in any given situation.

[Kabooa]

I don't have a misunderstanding, you're just being contrarian.

I'm going to go through point by point. I don't usually do this, but I'll make an exception.

Yes, you can use Gauss Round and Ricochet without Hypercharge - the point is Hypercharge enables the spam.

Can you use Shinten without using your basic weaponskills? No. Fundamental difference.

Yes, you don't have to use Gauss Round or Ricochet during Hypercharge, but since you Hypercharge for burst windows, you do use them during Hypercharge. Just like you don't have to Hypercharge during Wildfire, but you do.

*Edit: "Burst window" being used here as in party burst windows, given that Hypercharge is itself a burst window so...obviously you'd be using hypercharge during a burst window.

You don't only use Hypercharge for *party burst windows, on account that you have a finite amount of Hypercharge stock you can hold at a time, that have set times you can use them without drifting your Tool skills. You do far more hypercharges than there are *party burst windows, and thus the OGCDs are independent of the rotation - You use them primarily to avoid overcapping, but otherwise spam them mindlessly because there is both no punishment or benefit for doing it.

There is punishment for too much Shinten. It is less severe now, but it is there, because, again, it works on a resource based action selection system. Gauss and Richochet do not. Fundamental difference.

Gauss and Ricochet don't "interact" with Wildfire directly, but you Hypercharge when you Wildfire and you Heat Blast when you Hypercharge, and Heat Blast is what refreshes Gauss Round and Ricochet.

In other words, this shouldn't even be in your posts.

The point is, MCH OGDs are woven as part of their rotation. You don't have to, but you do have to if you want to play optimally, just like with SAM, you never had to weave Kaiten at all, let alone before Iaijutsu or Ogi Namikiri, but you did have to if you wanted to play optimally.

I won't argue that weaving during Overheat is drastically less impactful than Kaiten was in terms of fitting into the rotation, but when we talk about rotations, optimization is assumed, so how impactful it is isn't the point - the point is what the ideal rotation looks like

This is a non-point because every job functions like this. Compare Dragoon to Machinist and you will actually see the difference in OGCDs with weight in the rotation, and those that are just filler. You should be comparing Samurai to Ninja instead given that they work on a nearly identical structure.

Your argument about not being able to spam Shinten because of Gyoten and Yaten is fair only if you're talking about resource management, but again, that isn't what I was talking about - I was talking about how OGCDs fit into the rotation (or not).

Which is why I said

You are attempting to conflate one arbitrary synergy (Ammo and Hypercharge) with the Situational Skill of a Resource Conflict system. Simply put - that does not work.

There are fundamental differences in the individual OGCD's place and the surrounding kit that makes their comparison (And thus attempt to equalize them) flawed, and again, doing so only diminishes the Samurai.

The machinist isn't the one who has to have core parts of its kit removed to try and illustrate what the Samurai's Kaiten removal has done - The Samurai is the one who needs to see more kit reductions to be accurately compared to the Machinist.

There isn't a meaningful choice for SAM either - with or without Kaiten - the only difference is we used to have 2 buttons to lend some variety and now we only have 1.

Meanwhile you say MCH only has one answer for any given situation: Push the damage button. Except it's damage buttonS - that's the entire point - they might use the same 2 in any given situation, but they have 2 in any given situation. SAM has a non-choice between Shinten and Kyuten, but they only have 1 in any given situation.

If you want to argue non-choices then a better comparison would be to say if they merged Gauss Round with Ricochet and also merged Shinten with Kyuten, but we weren't talking about non-choices between ST rotations vs AOE rotations, we were talking about the variety of OGCDs used in any given situation.

Maybe I'm miscounting, but

Mach Damaging OGCDs: Gauss, Richo.

Sam: Shohah 1/2, Senei / Guren, Kyuten, Shinten, Dash/Backstep

If we count utility that are really just damage buttons

Reassemble
Barrel Stabilizer

Ikishoten
Meikyo Shishui
Seigen - 10 kenki is 10 kenki.

Should we also compare GCD counts, or is it only OGCD button counts that are boring?

For the record, you're going to have a hard time convincing me that Samurai has it oh so hard with its OGCD buttons, because again, Machinist isn't the case you want to use for who has it better.

[cjbeagle]

Can you use Shinten without using your basic weaponskills? No. Fundamental difference.

True, but also irrelevant because the topic was how they fit into the rotation, which is to say when to use them, not how they become available.

You don't only use Hypercharge for burst windows, on account that you have a finite amount of Hypercharge stock you can hold at a time, that have set times you can use them without drifting your Tool skills. You do far more hypercharges than there are burst windows, and thus the OGCDs are independent of the rotation - You use them primarily to avoid overcapping, but otherwise spam them mindlessly because there is both no punishment or benefit for doing it.

I concede that Gauss Round and Ricochet are far less part of the rotation than Kaiten was - this is even more pronounced with 3 charges of each - I admit that the vast majority of my time as MCH was spent with only 2 charges, so overcapping during Overheat was much more of a concern.

There is punishment for too much Shinten. It is less severe now, but it is there, because, again, it works on a resource based action selection system. Gauss and Richochet do not. Fundamental difference.

True, but you're talking about resource management again. Nobody was talking about resource management.

There are fundamental differences in the individual OGCD's place and the surrounding kit that makes their comparison (And thus attempt to equalize them) flawed, and again, doing so only diminishes the Samurai.

You're right - there are fundamental differences that makes my comparisons flawed, and the same can be said for literally every analogy ever made. My point was removal from rotation, which you've largely rebuked - fair enough - and the reduction of variety, which you've largely ignored, all the while bringing up new facets that weren't part of the original comparison to illustrate flaws. It'd be like if someone said that tuna were like the chicken of the sea because they're both a major food source and you ignore the fact that they are indeed both major food sources and start pointing out that tuna don't have feathers, chickens can't breathe underwater, etc.

[cjbeagle]

Maybe I'm miscounting, but

Mach Damaging OGCDs: Gauss, Richo.

Sam: Shohah 1/2, Senei / Guren, Kyuten, Shinten, Dash/Backstep

If we count utility that are really just damage buttons

Reassemble
Barrel Stabilizer

Ikishoten
Meikyo Shishui
Seigen - 10 kenki is 10 kenki.

The comparison was specifically OGCDs that are used frequently, but if you want to completely recontextualize the comparison, even though it has nothing to do with my original post, sure, let's compare:

MCH non-util OGCDs:
1. Gauss
2. Ricochet
3. Reassemble
4. Barrel Stablizer
5. Hypercharge
6. Wildfire
7. Automaton Queen
8. Queen Overdrive

SAM non-util OGCDs:
1. Shinten/Kyuten (mutually exclusive)
2. Senei/Guren (mutually exclusive)
3. Shoha/Shoha II (mutually exclusive)
4. Meikyo Shisui
5. Tsubame-gaeshi
6. Ikishoten
7. Third Eye

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Queen Overdrive is basically useless, so MCH effectively has 7 non-util OGCDs that they use in any given situation - same as SAM.

Should we also compare GCD counts, or is it only OGCD button counts that are boring?

imo it's only the spammable OGCDs that are boring on SAM, but sure, let's compare non-util GCDs too:

MCH:
1. Heated Split Shot
2. Heated Slug Shot
3. Heated Clean Shot
4. Scattergun
5. Drill
6. Bioblaster
7. Air Anchor
8. Heat Blast
9. Auto Crossbow
10. Flamethrower (technically an OGCD, but channeled, so competes with GCDs)

SAM:
1. Hakaze
2. Shifu
3. Jinpu
4. Kasha
5. Gekko
6. Yukikaze
7. Fuko
8. Oka
9. Mangetsu
10. Ogi Namikiri

[ildranor]

yeah you will need that time to weave all the extra shintens. just put kaiten back man, job feels trash atm.

[Kabooa]

You're right - there are fundamental differences that makes my comparisons flawed, and the same can be said for literally every analogy ever made. My point was removal from rotation, which you've largely rebuked - fair enough - and the reduction of variety, which you've largely ignored, all the while bringing up new facets that weren't part of the original comparison to illustrate flaws. It'd be like if someone said that tuna were like the chicken of the sea because they're both a major food source and you ignore the fact that they are indeed both major food sources and start pointing out that tuna don't have feathers, chickens can't breathe underwater, etc.

I wouldn't say I ignored variety reduction, more that there isn't much to say. It happened. It sucks that it did. I don't think Samurai has been lowered to the same state as Machinist, let alone in a position to look up at them. That is why I focused mostly on exposing the flaws rather than looking at the merits.

That's the main thing I want to avoid: I want to avoid any Dev thinking there's even a whiff of the population who want Samurai to be more like Machinist.

I'm also not going to tackle that analogy, if you don't mind. The short version is that the premise isn't contestable. They are both food sources. Yes indeed.

The comparison was specifically OGCDs that are used frequently, but if you want to completely recontextualize the comparison, even though it has nothing to do with my original post, sure, let's compare:

But just to clarify, would you be having more fun if Kyuten / Shinten nullified the other's cost so long as the prior spent Kenki? (AKA they worked just like Richo/Gauss)