Thread: 6.1 Kaiten Changes

And just when a thread seemed like it would steer clear of sarcasm, it already rears itself.

Well, at least the main points I've been saying have already been said in relation to the discussion at hand.

Originally Posted by Zeiden

I recognize many people on this forum have a differing opinion, but I would like to throw mine in the mix.

Personally I like the removal of kaiten. It did mess with my muscle memory for a while, but I did not really find kaiten particularly engaging. One thing I really enjoy due to the removal is that it feels much nicer to weave other ogcds into the rotation more comfortably.

Again the people who disagree with the removal of kaitens opinion are just as valid. I just want to put my opinion out there as well.

Thanks for the read.

Disagree heavily but thanks for being civil

Originally Posted by Daechir

I'm glad Kaiten is gone. It was just Button Bloat for no real reason.

Lets just stop pushing any buttons, we can just auto attack

Originally Posted by Kaseladen

Lets just stop pushing any buttons, we can just auto attack

That already exists. It's called "Final Fantasy XI: Online". I don't know, maybe that's what people want. Pushing buttons every 2 seconds is hard vs every 30 seconds or so?

Originally Posted by butchersblock

So is Third Eye, Shinten, Kyuten, Senei, and Guren. I think we should remove all of them, it's just button bloat. I'm sure you can agree with at least that much, right?

The sad and funny part is that for loads of jobs, this way of thinking has been the guiding design philosophy. If it continues down this road, your post might age like wine in a couple of years.

It can also be reworked too,

No more further pruning needed than it already is.

I don't think we should water down jobs to appeal to people who didn't like the job's core aspects in the first place that dedicated players did enjoy. We should have unique jobs that people like and dislike depending on their gameplay preferences. If we designed the jobs to appeal to everyone then the result would be bland jobs across the board with little nuance

I’ve always wondered about the people who wanted an auto play feature, in those weird games where you just hit Go! And the game plays itself. But I’m beginning to see those who must have been in the market for such a feature. They won’t be happy til the one button you push is ‘auto.’

I miss classes that gave you a choice with every hit. Even if they were slow or weak. (I loved the Burglar in LOTRO, long ago). But - oh well. Here we are. People whining about buttons.

Originally Posted by Zeiden

I recognize many people on this forum have a differing opinion, but I would like to throw mine in the mix.

Personally I like the removal of kaiten. It did mess with my muscle memory for a while, but I did not really find kaiten particularly engaging. One thing I really enjoy due to the removal is that it feels much nicer to weave other ogcds into the rotation more comfortably.

Again the people who disagree with the removal of kaitens opinion are just as valid. I just want to put my opinion out there as well.

Thanks for the read.

I think that's the funny thing here.

In itself, losing Kaiten is just losing a bit of rhythm and flair.

That said, it does mean that the only thing making Kenki a gauge instead of a Shinten counter... is Gyoten/Yaten. The changes surrounding Kaiten's loss, moreover, also made Iaijutsu effectively unable to crit (by having their potency so greatly reduced in order to auto-crit).

Perhaps more importantly still, though: It comes at the end of a long line of bad Endwalker changes. The standardization of Kenki costs and Ikishoten's CD being doubled already led Kenki to feel less meaningful. Adding a second charge to Tsubame-Gaeshi made it feel like a fire-and-forget raid-buff-milker instead of a keystone that anchors our macrorotation and gives reason for trimming or extending our GCD cycles via Iaijutsu and Meikyo. Adding a further Meikyo charge atop that made us feel even more like we only really played for 15 or 20 seconds in every 120.

And they mangled all that for... what, exactly? Who asked for those changes? There were only three changes actually made that seemed responsive to suggestions:

• Tsubame-Gaeshi not giving Meditation stacks, as not to forcing clipping to avoid waste when the Iaijutsu before TG would give the third stack.
• Third Eye's offensive bonus being a bit more sizeable and usable towards AoE. (Though, this was typically suggested as Seigan turning into an upgrade for Shinten, with another attack then also replacing Kyuten after Third Eye's consumption).
• Enpi not consuming Meikyo stacks.

That was it.

The other decently common suggestions:

• Make TG's timing a little more flexible, such as by keeping it available (not cancelled by other weaponskills) until the next Iaijutsu has been cast, or at least for up to 5 seconds or so after an Iaijutsu has been cast. Such would still punish drift, but only to the extent of most CDs, instead of seriously screwing over anyone with packet loss or under a lag spike.
• Prevent Kaiten from being recast while the buff is already active. (Likewise an aid for those with high packet loss.)
• Increase the advantage for favoring Yukikaze combo when a full combo is needed, and avoiding Yukikaze where possible during Meikyo.
• Have Meditate grant its stacks separately from standard generation, so that going into downtime with 2 stacks wouldn't waste much of the value of Meditate. (For instance, perhaps it would instead reduce the cost of one's next Shoha by up to 3 stacks, rather than just granting those stacks, as not to be potentially wasted.)
• Buff Hagakure slightly further to make it less of a trap. (Still keep a damage loss, to be clear, and inferior as a drift / sync-tool to Enhanced Enpi, though that may require a small buff to the latter.)
• Allow Gyoten to be queued during an Iaijutsu to extend the Iaijutsu's range (essentially, it gap-closes and deals Gyoten's potency without the normal Gyoten animation [lock] as it then does the blink-striked Iaijutsu).
• Perhaps give Gyoten/Yaten a further charge each, have them share recast timers (and reduce their CDs), or just allow either to steal the other's CD for double-use (though they'd then recharge slower if used that way since they'd then be considered sequential charges).
• Slightly expand Tsubame's use cases for Higanbana and Tenka Goken.
• Perhaps consolidate Senei by making it conditional: If only one enemy is in Guren's line of attack, Senei is used instead.

I feel like you all make really good points that do also align a bit with my own feelings on the subject. The removal of kaiten breaking the small connect that did exist between the two gauges is a really valid one.

Originally Posted by Ransu

Weave what exactly? Third eye? I'm not really seeing what you'd find being easier to weave into given how the current opener works.

It did used to be more when third eye could also proc stuff, but I am happy to be able to weave the role actions more comfortably in the rotation.

Originally Posted by xAFROx

The change to aoe I find objectively horrid for anything that casts given that it's a circle instead of a cone now, leaving us open to cleaves and other aoes from dungeon packs just for trying to hit them with something that's as strong as a combo actions. If part of the goal was to remove tenka goken from the kit, I guess they succeeded there because it seems better to just use kyuten after aoe combo instead.

I certainly am on the fence as well about the aoe change especially because fuga starts as a cone (when sync'd down) while tenka goten is now always a circle aoe. I'm not sure if I like the circle aoes more than the conal ones. Maybe I'm just not used to it yet.

Several people have also mentioned that the removal of kaiten has had an overall cascade of affects on the class. I hadn't really considered from the perspective of the numbers, but I certainly have noticed my midares feel less big now. I also agree that just spam shinten is not particularly engaging. If Samurai does end up getting a huge rework for 6.2 I am really curious what sort of direction they plan to take it.

Originally Posted by Ruminous

Definitely meditate, that is just button bloat. But add shoha and shoha 2 to that list. Both are redundant and worthless. Hagakure, why's it even there now? Throw that away, kenki management is meaningless so we can do away with that now. Just keep choppin', we'll eventually get down to the meat. Oh and throw that annoying meter out too, we definitely don't need that. And no I'm not even being sarcastic about the meter, it really is pretty pointless now.

I do think it would be nice if they would combine some actions together. Shoha 1 could just upgrade into Shoha 2. Ikishoten could just change into Ogi Namikiri. Maybe I'm a bit weird on this but please don't remove Hagakure again, my heart can't take it ^^;;

Thank you for the great responses everyone!

Hagakure as it currently exists is okay. I would prefer if it still offered 20 kenki per Sen, but that was too high of a value back in SB, so that's alright.

I never did understand why Ogi/Kaeshi Namikiri didn't change from Ikishoten. I read the tooltips and it read as if it did just that like several other buttons introduced this expansion. To my surprise, I didn't have the ability when I tried the lvl 90 role quest, lol.

Shoha 2 should definitely have been an upgrade if they aren't going to expand on the idea of Meditation as a resource.

I also miss Seigan and kenki building being tied to positionals instead of damage, but with the homogenization of costs between shinten, kyuten, guren, and senei, I suppose that change makes sense... if only because hey seem to want the resource to be more thoughtless. Would've been really nice to keep our counter ability from Third Eye instead of a small kenki gain. I almost never notice the extra 10 points either, but it beats being removed at least.