*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better

[Rulakir]

Would I want to join Emet because his plan and his ideas were good? Absolutely not. Especially after experiencing Elpis. Elpis really snapped me out of the idea that everything was absolutely perfect before the calamity. It was a wonderful experience but interacting with Hermes made me realize how imperfect it was really.

The irony is absolute 'perfection' is bad (The Plenty), but apparently the Ancients not being perfect is... also bad? I find it arbitrary. It doesn't matter if you, or I, or anyone else thought the Ancients weren't perfect (which is subjective). It didn't give anyone the right to overthrow their democracy, strip them of their will, violate their bodies and souls without consent, and force them to birth 14 new existences conveniently with no knowledge of the monstrous crime that has been committed upon them.

Also, the jist I got from the people of the Plenty was that they threw away everything that could've been perceived as a source of strife, even the things that gave their lives meaning. That may have even included their very star down below judging from the fact that it's a barren, broken wasteland with what civilization was left relegated to a few isles floating above. As a result, their pursuit of "perfection" comes across as having been rather reckless compared to the Ancients who deliberated over decisions and debated at length in hopes of ensuring they were making the right choice.

The comparison struck me as odd because the denizens of The Plenty have a fundamentally different belief system than the Ancients, yet we're supposed to somehow connect the dots that this was ultimately going to be their fate? Pointing out that people have to note the robes and masks similarities because, frankly, without them you'd arguably never make that connection.

I don't know how long it takes to undergo such a foundational change given that they would have had to decide that returning to the star was no longer beautiful and the thing to do was live forever, it could've been 20k+ years into the future for all we know. (This opens up a whole other discussion as to whether or not the star would cease giving out souls or wouldn't they eventually suffer from overpopulation?) What I don't see discussed nearly enough is that in trying to avoid this one particular fate Etheirys was made susceptible to many others depicted in Ultima Thule that they weren't at risk for before the sundering.

[NekoMataMata]

The irony is absolute 'perfection' is bad (The Plenty), but apparently the Ancients not being perfect is... also bad? I find it arbitrary. It doesn't matter if you, or I, or anyone else thought the Ancients weren't perfect (which is subjective). It didn't give anyone the right to overthrow their democracy, strip them of their will, violate their bodies and souls without consent, and force them to birth 14 new existences conveniently with no knowledge of the monstrous crime that has been committed upon them.

You're missing the point. The idea of the ancients being perfect and having no problems was the main point of argument for Emet's side. He claimed that despite all the suffering the Umbral Calamities brought, there was still far more suffering created naturally amongst the peoples of each shard and of the source itself. In his comparison he makes it seem as if any amount of damage done to those currently existing is negligible because the ancients had no problems.

It's a bit of a utilitarian way of thinking. He's claiming that his way will cause the greatest amount of happiness and the least amount of suffering in the long run.

You can't change what happened to them and that's not really worth the discussion.

[Rulakir]

He's claiming that his way will cause the greatest amount of happiness and the least amount of suffering in the long run.

I don't know what to tell you if your takeaway from Elpis was that the unsundered were significantly worse off than the sundered. Matter of fact, we're rather explicitly shown that their primary issue is lack of inspiration, which certainly seems the preferable existence to one that still involves war, homelessness, sex trafficking, etc.

Emet also never said they didn't have problems, only that their differences were insignificant next to all they had in common. Were they as perfect as you claim he presented them as there would be no need for the seat of Elidibus. Plus, he's not wrong. As said in the NieR crossover, "Their pitiable lives are fleeting. In the simplest of ways, they die and die." The Ancients "lived nigh for eternity", so from that perspective it is providing "the greatest amount of happiness and the least amount of suffering in the long run".

[NekoMataMata]

I don't know what to tell you if your takeaway from Elpis was that the unsundered were significantly worse off than the sundered. Matter of fact, we're rather explicitly shown that their primary issue is lack of inspiration, which certainly seems the preferable existence to one that still involves war, homelessness, sex trafficking, etc.

Emet also never said they didn't have problems, only that their differences were insignificant next to all they had in common. Were they as perfect as you claim he presented them as there would be no need for the seat of Elidibus. Plus, he's not wrong. As said in the NieR crossover, "Their pitiable lives are fleeting. In the simplest of ways, they die and die." The Ancients "lived nigh for eternity", so from that perspective it is providing "the greatest amount of happiness and the least amount of suffering in the long run".

That definitely wasn't my take away and I wish you wouldn't be so rude and assuming.

And while it's unfortunate, you clearly need reminding that Elpis is only a portion of the ancient's civilization. My take away from watching Hermes wasn't that they were worse off. It was that they too had problems, that they too had issues to deal with. Watching Hermes struggle with grasping the meaning of life, with him struggling at the thought of his predecessor choosing to pass on to the star made me wonder how many other ancients were struggling in their own ways. It might not have been quite as awful as the struggles that exist in the sundered shards and source, but to me it's significant because that's his claim for denying the sundered peoples their existence.

If even the tiniest of flaws was enough to deny someone life, then no one sundered or unsundered would be deserving. The ancients did not deserve what happened to them but that did not give them any right to take it out on the new life that had taken hold after the sundering.

[Rulakir]

That definitely wasn't my take away and I wish you wouldn't be so rude and assuming.

Coming from the person who's said I'm "missing the point" and "clearly need reminding"? Honestly, if you thought my response was rude, I think you're going to find online discourse challenging, to put it mildly.

My take away from watching Hermes wasn't that they were worse off.

My takeaway from watching Hermes was he was mentally unstable and in the wrong line of work. I didn't have an issue with the 'return to the star' belief system, I thought it was a refreshing perspective. I also found several of his comments ridiculous, especially coming from my own experiences volunteering for animal rescues where I accept that all creatures can't be saved and many times the most kindness you can offer is to end their suffering.

I don't know who the target audience for Hermes was considering Ishikawa herself said she thought 80% of players would hate him, but it certainly wasn't me. I did not find him sympathetic or his concerns to have merit and, according to the fandom, I'm exactly the type of person with whom he should have resonated. Rather, he came across as someone emotionally immature who decided because he was miserable then everyone else should be too and I have no respect for that.

It would appear we fundamentally disagree on the Elpis experience, so there's no point in me addressing the rest.

[thegreatonemal]

Coming from the person who's said I'm "missing the point" and "clearly need reminding"? Honestly, if you thought my response was rude, I think you're going to find online discourse challenging, to put it mildly.



My takeaway from watching Hermes was he was mentally unstable and in the wrong line of work. I didn't have an issue with the 'return to the star' belief system, I thought it was a refreshing perspective. I also found several of his comments ridiculous, especially coming from my own experiences volunteering for animal rescues where I accept that all creatures can't be saved and many times the most kindness you can offer is to end their suffering.

I don't know who the target audience for Hermes was considering Ishikawa herself said she thought 80% of players would hate him, but it certainly wasn't me. I did not find him sympathetic or his concerns to have merit and, according to the fandom, I'm exactly the type of person with whom he should have resonated. Rather, he came across as someone emotionally immature who decided because he was miserable then everyone else should be too and I have no respect for that.

It would appear we fundamentally disagree on the Elpis experience, so there's no point in me addressing the rest.

When was the last time an animal shelter put down a dog for not barking? That's what was about to happen until Hermes urged some of his collages to give one of their creations a chance to fly it was having trouble for some reason and got over it with some effort.