*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better

[Alleo]

Like, it's baffling to me that someone can even make a statement like this unironically. Obviously writers shouldn't uncritically capitulate to any negative feedback, and should also consider positive responses to their work. But I can't think of an example where refusing to engage with it at all hasn't ended in a complete mess.

And how do you want them to engage with it? They believe that the story they wrote was great. This is what they wanted to write. They could say that a part of the playerbase does not like it but what exactly would that change? None of us have a amount of numbers on who liked it and who didnt. Heck I would say that overall I have seen way more positive reaction to it but thats just my view and not a fact.

So I am not sure what is missing? They go out of their ways in interviews to answers some questions people have about the story. Do you want them to go into this lore threads and post about their view? And what if that view does not fit with what you want? Does this engagement makes it better? After all Yoshida did state that the Ancients could probably end up like the people of The Plenty and yet that was not a much welcomed information.

People can and should post their opinions about the story of a game. But I doubt that we should ever expect that our feedback should change something like that because this could easily spiral into a huge mess where nobody is truly satisfied.

Okay? You're not Venat, Venat is from a race of nigh omnipotent god-people who believe thier race have the right and responsibility to shape the future of thier world. Like Yoshi-P said, she's "very much an ancient".

What you would do or think hardly matters, since we're talking about whether or not Venat believes she was right.

Not only that but also we have absolutely no idea what she tried before the final days came the first time. When we fight her as Hydaelyn she afterwards stated that the stories of our adventures kept her going even after all the failures she had. These could of course be the failure of stopping a rejoining but it could also mean that many other plans were crushed before she became Hydealyn.

[Lyth]

...

I think that if you've been around online forums for long enough, none of this is new territory. It's just pattern recognition.

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with shipping debates, mind you, as long as they are actual debates. But eventually people become so entrenched in their positions that they just shout the same things over and over, so it does get a bit repetitive, and nobody is going change their mind anyways. But I suppose that's the mark of a good fictional work as well, if some people are so passionate that they can't help but keep talking about it months later.

[KageTokage]

And how do you want them to engage with it? They believe that the story they wrote was great. This is what they wanted to write. They could say that a part of the playerbase does not like it but what exactly would that change? None of us have a amount of numbers on who liked it and who didnt. Heck I would say that overall I have seen way more positive reaction to it but thats just my view and not a fact.

So I am not sure what is missing? They go out of their ways in interviews to answers some questions people have about the story. Do you want them to go into this lore threads and post about their view? And what if that view does not fit with what you want? Does this engagement makes it better? After all Yoshida did state that the Ancients could probably end up like the people of The Plenty and yet that was not a much welcomed information.

People can and should post their opinions about the story of a game. But I doubt that we should ever expect that our feedback should change something like that because this could easily spiral into a huge mess where nobody is truly satisfied.

I'm at least glad they do seem to be aware that a non-insignificant number of people were getting the "wrong idea" from the story because it should hopefully indicate that maybe they could've handled things a bit better when the prior stories didn't have such an issue.

...And yeah, they did kind of just dig themselves deeper by clarifying points like Venat letting Emet-Selch and the others escape on purpose as well as her somewhat irrational fear that the Ancients were going to go the way of the Plenty when they were never trying to "eliminate strife" as they had been. Creation magic in itself ran counter to that idea considering that it was openly acknowledged that new creations could be horrifyingly dangerous, yet nobody seemed to get called out for it unless they were trying to break protocol by unleashing an untested concept into the outside world.

[Teraq]

I'm at least glad they do seem to be aware that a non-insignificant number of people were getting the "wrong idea" from the story because it should hopefully indicate that maybe they could've handled things a bit better when the prior stories didn't have such an issue.

...And yeah, they did kind of just dig themselves deeper by clarifying points like Venat letting Emet-Selch and the others escape on purpose as well as her somewhat irrational fear that the Ancients were going to go the way of the Plenty when their very human flaws most likely would've prevented them from ever truly reaching "perfection" even before the Sundering happened.

Short but very on-point post IMO.

I already disliked Endwalker's MSQ a whole lot, and the Q&A only made it worse in ... quite a few ways. Correct me if I am dead wrong, but I had the impression Shadowbringers was so loved because it did so much to humanise the villains and who they used to be, as well as cast doubt on Hydaelyn's intentions. Endwalker dramatically walked back on all of this, it is baffling. This game is really trying to tell me the Ancients would have become like these strawman aliens while simultaneously presenting me with a raid storyline involving a hostage situation fraught with family issues in the Ancient world. Perfect people absolutely well on their way to become perfect bored aliens, right here.

[Lyth]

The thing that makes Shadowbringers' storyline interesting is the element of fear. You're effectively thrown into a foreign land without any of your usual supports against an enemy that the world believed was impossible to defeat. It's a bit like the original Matrix - you see an Agent, and you just run. The reversal of the 'light as good' trope was interesting as well, and I certainly would have been open to the idea of Hydaelyn as a final villain (and even made that prediction at one point on this forum). For that matter, when Hermes killed off Zodiark and we heard the Endsinger's voice, I initially thought that was the direction that we were headed.

That being said, I'm not the sort of person to get too emotionally attached to an idea, and I don't mind being proven wrong. Venat, Hyth, and even Emet all turned out to be charming characters, and I can see the reasons why each did what they did. In a way, there isn't even two factions in conflict at all, just two generations of families finally coming to peace with an old grudge. If Shadowbringers was a story about fear, then Endwalker is one about kindness, bonds, empathy, and love. And I know that's not something that everyone cares to see in their fiction, but it only speaks to Ishikawa's range as writer. Either way, both chapters in this story are malms above the first three expansions in the series, and I'm thrilled that she's writing for FFXVI.

[Lurina]

And the fact that you're here on an active account six months later, still demanding AU retcons, indicates that the story has clearly left an impact on you. Which is good in its own way. It's okay to be upset that things didn't turn out the way that you wanted them to. That usually comes with taking sides in a shipping war.

What's weird to me, Lyth, is that you're saying this specifically in response to me, despite the fact that I've spelled out repeatedly in these discussions - directly at you at least once - that I don't really care that much about 'saving' the Ascians or establishing some kind of AU, unlike a lot of other posters. My complaints have always been centered on the mechanical awkwardness in the construction of Endwalker's scenario, and how it's unsatisfying.

I am not here to cheer for 'my guy'; I was eager to girlboss Venat for doing the thing she did if the surrounding scenario wasn't janky. Rather, I am here because I feel Endwalker's plot is so broken while also so profoundly foundational to the setting, it's made the worldbuilding feel fundamentally farcical and awkward to engage with emotionally; this is now a setting where the reason people have to die of old age is linked to a character doing a thing for which the central motivations are completely unclear, and at least partially involve a grandfather paradox, a storytelling device normally played for comedy. More importantly, I'm posting about it because I'm anxious this represents a Cataclysm moment where the writers have lost sight of the nuance that originally made their story appealing, and are going to run something I like into the ground.

To reiterate, I would not be bothered by the fate of the Ancients if the story was mechanically satisfying! Kill 'em! I liked the fact that they were dead in Shadowbringers because Shadowbringers was constructed excellently. Hell, I'd have less of them in Endwalker if I could; Elpis took away a lot of what made them special, and made Emet's death as striking as it was.

This is the same thing as when we last argued, when you randomly accused me of wanting Emet to win. You are perceiving the people who dislike Endwalker as a monolith upset their faction 'lost', but that's just not the case. If you read the EW story criticism thread on the General Discussion, you'll notice that the people there fight among themselves constantly because they have vastly different reasons for disliking the story, some of which are predicated on not getting the ending they wanted or the the group they identify, others on the narrative construction, and some on much more personal reasons like the tone or hating Alphinaud or, occasionally, moon logic positions based on assumptions of the politics of the writers. And sometimes it's a mix of these!

All works produce a range of criticism that is varyingly reasonable, and in every case it's debateable which points in that range have any validity or grounding in the text; only the writer can look at it and, along with their own introspection, separate the wheat from the chaff. Likewise, only their fans in aggregate can later judge whether that self-analysis was a success or a failure. I've found myself agreeing with a lot of refutations of common complaints here. Some of the reasons people hate Endwalker or Venat specifically are extremely strange, and sometimes even vaguely misogynist or racist. It's uncomfortable.

But you're refusing to engage with this at all in favor of painting everyone who disliked it as being of like minds. Do you think I'm being insincere when I say I'm motivated by something different? I don't understand where you're coming from.

[Theodric]

If you've degraded into thinking this is about "faction shipping" and that people are seriously posting on alts here just to further their arguments, that's reason enough for me (And a lot of other people) to stop trying to engage with you.

Firmly agreed.

It's strange that certain posters treat any criticism of the story as coming from a hive mind since the debates themselves reveal a lot of different opinions and stances on the story with disagreement on the specifics being common.

I can't say I've personally ever invested in 'shipping' so I'm genuinely confused by where that is coming from.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Firmly agreed.

It's strange that certain posters treat any criticism of the story as coming from a hive mind since the debates themselves reveal a lot of different opinions and stances on the story with disagreement on the specifics being common.

I can't say I've personally ever invested in 'shipping' so I'm genuinely confused by where that is coming from.

I ship Venat with the sharp end of my blade does that count?

[Lyth]

?????

No, I didn't even quote you. I dismissed several very similar posts that were devoid of substance with a single line, and then moved on. If you think that something that I write applies to you, great. If it doesn't, also great. I'm going to have to go with Frey's words on this:

'For I speak only for myself. If you find comfort in my words, they are yours for the taking, but that is your choice. Now and ever after, as it has always been.'

[KizuyaKatogami]

That's not even a logical generalization!

There are a few extremely vocal player accounts (which may or may not belong to unique players) that are at the center of the majority of this 'feedback', or perhaps more accurately, 'faction shipping'. If that's obvious to the average forum user with the basic forum tools that all of us have access to (including the numerical post breakdowns of threads by account - most people here don't even have 500 posts in total, let alone 500 posts in a single thread), it would be even more blatantly obvious to SE on a forum that they actually have moderator privileges on.

And the fact that you're here on an active account six months later, still demanding AU retcons, indicates that the story has clearly left an impact on you. Which is good in its own way. It's okay to be upset that things didn't turn out the way that you wanted them to. That usually comes with taking sides in a shipping war.

Of course, hats off to you for your diligence, but shippers are usually a determined sort anyways. Everyone has their own way of supporting the game, I guess.

Either way, if Amaurot is indeed as controversial as you claim, then perhaps it's for the best that it's being dropped from the story as well. All this faction shipping gets in the way of the more interesting worldbuilding elements.

Number 1) What shipping war? Seems like a weird way for you to just simplify actual criticism of the story into petty shipping war when that’s not what it is at all.
Number 2) I think it’s pretty bad when, liked the story or not, people on both sides have said the ancient story has been far more interesting than any other story. There doesn’t seem to be anything pulling people back to Eorzea or the other continents very much. We’ve gone to the edge of the universe, it’s only natural people would want something more after that.