"balancing" some jobs

[Petite]

Dude you call gserpent a troll but he logically responded to each of your complaints. I think it's you man.

They really do sound like a troll though. By most people’s standards, they spout thoughtless takes one after the other and has no self-awareness. It’s fine to be wrong on occasion, but they’re different and will argue semantics to the bitter end instead of reflecting on their statements.

Here are just 3 recent examples of the takes they proudly proclaim, two of them on this very thread :

’’Shukuchi sucks for escaping’’
I’ve played a lot of NIN and I know for a fact that Shukuchi is hands down the best escape ability in PvP.

’’NIN damage is by far the lowest’’
No.
- NIN’s 1-target burst very potent with a simple Bunshin>Assassinate>Mug>Mudra setup;
- NIN can AOE very well because of Goka being a 20K AOE dot;
- If their team is focusing a target, a NIN can simply Mug>Forked Raiju>Fleeting Raiju them for an instant 4 seconds-long double-stun, leading to an easy kill or a Purify burn.
- NINs worth their salt fight out of melee range 90% of the time which makes them the safest melee to play, especially when you consider shukuchi.
- Finally, if you don’t think NIN’s LB is a little busted, you’re probably a NIN main.

’’WHM LB is fine’’
I won’t entertain this statement.

There are a ton more such takes, but I think I proved my point enough. That’s why I now choose not to reply to them as I learned why people called them a troll. You might think it’s not in the spirit of a forum to ignore someone, but as I already explained, I avoid nailing Jell-o to walls.
I’m not here to tell you what to think. I’m explaining why their reputation precedes them.

[Ransu]

They really do sound like a troll though. By most people’s standards, they spout thoughtless takes one after the other and has no self-awareness. It’s fine to be wrong on occasion, but they’re different and will argue semantics to the bitter end instead of reflecting on their statements.

Here are just 3 recent examples of the takes they proudly proclaim, two of them on this very thread :

’’Shukuchi sucks for escaping’’
I’ve played a lot of NIN and I know for a fact that Shukuchi is hands down the best escape ability in PvP.

’’NIN damage is by far the lowest’’
No.
- NIN’s 1-target burst very potent with a simple Bunshin>Assassinate>Mug>Mudra setup;
- NIN can AOE very well because of Goka being a 20K AOE dot;
- If their team is focusing a target, a NIN can simply Mug>Forked Raiju>Fleeting Raiju them for an instant 4 seconds-long double-stun, leading to an easy kill or a Purify burn.
- NINs worth their salt fight out of melee range 90% of the time which makes them the safest melee to play, especially when you consider shukuchi.
- Finally, if you don’t think NIN’s LB is a little busted, you’re probably a NIN main.

’’WHM LB is fine’’
I won’t entertain this statement.

There are a ton more such takes, but I think I proved my point enough. That’s why I now choose not to reply to them as I learned why people called them a troll. You might think it’s not in the spirit of a forum to ignore someone, but as I already explained, I avoid nailing Jell-o to walls.
I’m not here to tell you what to think. I’m explaining why their reputation precedes them.

He's also the same guy who said fire was viable for BLM lol. Take anything gserpent says with a grain of salt.

Shukuchi is good when it works, but there are plenty of tines where I will use it and immediately have cover blown due to AOE or having a cast on me land. In which case, I'm often a sitting duck. It absolutely has helped me get away from enemy parties in the past, but it's never a guarantee and fails as an escape just as much.

If you use it right 99% of the time it works perfectly as an escape. Yes the tick rate will take you out of stealth sometimes which sucks, but with sprint you're already far enough away anyways that it doesn't matter.

[Bureda]

They really do sound like a troll though. By most people’s standards, they spout thoughtless takes one after the other and has no self-awareness. It’s fine to be wrong on occasion, but they’re different and will argue semantics to the bitter end instead of reflecting on their statements.

Here are just 3 recent examples of the takes they proudly proclaim, two of them on this very thread :

’’Shukuchi sucks for escaping’’
I’ve played a lot of NIN and I know for a fact that Shukuchi is hands down the best escape ability in PvP.

’’NIN damage is by far the lowest’’
No.
- NIN’s 1-target burst very potent with a simple Bunshin>Assassinate>Mug>Mudra setup;
- NIN can AOE very well because of Goka being a 20K AOE dot;
- If their team is focusing a target, a NIN can simply Mug>Forked Raiju>Fleeting Raiju them for an instant 4 seconds-long double-stun, leading to an easy kill or a Purify burn.
- NINs worth their salt fight out of melee range 90% of the time which makes them the safest melee to play, especially when you consider shukuchi.
- Finally, if you don’t think NIN’s LB is a little busted, you’re probably a NIN main.

’’WHM LB is fine’’
I won’t entertain this statement.

There are a ton more such takes, but I think I proved my point enough. That’s why I now choose not to reply to them as I learned why people called them a troll. You might think it’s not in the spirit of a forum to ignore someone, but as I already explained, I avoid nailing Jell-o to walls.
I’m not here to tell you what to think. I’m explaining why their reputation precedes them.

Someone smells like a hater!

Apparently when a team focuses a person, the Ninja caused it. Damn that NIN kit is so busted!

Ninja literally cannot stand toe to toe against other melee and has to kite.
Let's ignore the fact that everything and their mum has AOE's with questionable range or hit rate due to server ticks that makes Stealth the clunkiest mechanic in the game.

Calling people trolls but here you are trolling trying to justify your inadequacy.

Nice!

[Ransu]

Someone smells like a hater!

Apparently when a team focuses a person, the Ninja caused it. Damn that NIN kit is so busted!

Ninja literally cannot stand toe to toe against other melee and has to kite.
Let's ignore the fact that everything and their mum has AOE's with questionable range or hit rate due to server ticks that makes Stealth the clunkiest mechanic in the game.

Calling people trolls but here you are trolling trying to justify your inadequacy.

Nice!

Sounds like you don't really know how to play NIN.

[Gserpent]

I’ve played a lot of NIN and I know for a fact that Shukuchi is hands down the best escape ability in PvP.

You're defining escape differently than me. Stealth is largely unreliable if you are being actively attacked when you teleport. If it breaks - and it probably will - you're just going to have the MNK or whatever dash right back to you and keep thumping you. It is an *excellent* skill but it's not a very good escape skill because its escape component is so unreliable. It's basically on par with Elusive Jump (more flexible but EJ breaks binds and snares.)

No.
- NIN’s 1-target burst very potent with a simple Bunshin>Assassinate>Mug>Mudra setup;
- NIN can AOE very well because of Goka being a 20K AOE dot;
- If their team is focusing a target, a NIN can simply Mug>Forked Raiju>Fleeting Raiju them for an instant 4 seconds-long double-stun, leading to an easy kill or a Purify burn.
- NINs worth their salt fight out of melee range 90% of the time which makes them the safest melee to play, especially when you consider shukuchi.
- Finally, if you don’t think NIN’s LB is a little busted, you’re probably a NIN main.

I mean, yes? You can literally just do the math, or just fire up ACT and spend a few minutes thumping target dummies. NIN has generally the lowest DPS of any melee, especially sustained, and that DPS becomes even lower if you force out a Meisui or Huton. NIN can do solid burst (typically Bunshin-Fuma-Mug-Edge-Assassinate-Hyosho) but their sustained DPS and DPS over time is substantially lower than MNK's and is equivalent at best to, say, RPR or SAM. NIN is also extremely twiggy if they go full nova and blow everything on burst - you're burning both mudras and your teleport to try and maximize damage output, which means you're meat for whoever wants you if it fails (or even if it succeeds, you might just get merked in return and turn it into a 4v4.)

You're right that NIN generally spends a lot of time at a distance throwing darts at people, but that's because they kind of have to. They aren't designed to get stuck in and things often go poorly for them when they do. At least compared to, say, a MNK. NIN LB is completely fine. 90 sec charge cycle and it doesn't snapshot, which means you can just pop a heal while the cast animation is firing off and the NIN just gets to pound sand unless their team can kill you in the few seconds Death Link lasts. Yes, it is *amazing* at sweeping, but that's literally NIN's job. They were a sweeper before and they are a sweeper now, too. If they have LB or are about to have it, play defensively and keep your HP topped up. Don't be greedy. It's fine.

I won’t entertain this statement.

Because you refuse to look at things holistically. WHM LB is incredibly overloaded because the rest of their kit is *garbage* compared to every other healer's. They get LB and they get polymorph and no one gives a shit about the rest because it's so forgettable. SCH, AST, SGE all have vastly superior kits to WHM and, arguably, have better LBs as well (SCH and AST are basically "we win this fight if you don't snap my neck right now") but on twice the charge cycle.

There's a reason WHM falls off *hard* in favor of AST in high skill games.

[Vatom]

There's a reason WHM falls off *hard* in favor of AST in high skill games.

Holy crap people are noticing AST is good though I was the only one

[Gserpent]

Holy crap people are noticing AST is good though I was the only one

It feels that way when you talk to people but if you look at actual play rates, AST is through the roof, especially among top 100's. It's overpowered and by far the healer best-suited to carrying weak players. I prefer SCH because I hate how clunky Double Cast feels but there's no denying that AST is *way* stronger. Being able to dump 28k AOE damage plus Heavy, Bind, and the Macrocosmos effect is basically a WHM LB burst cycle every 30 seconds.