What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[PawPaw]

So if EW was lackluster does that mean the next expansion will be good? As is right now it's kinda the pattern of good to bad to good. At least imo.

I guess it depends on how you feel about ARR, SB and EW but the first two are generally considered the weaker of the EPs, with EW being absolute trash can tier for me. So I guess if we're looking at a pattern, the next EP should be great. I can't say I have much hope for the it though, considering how much the writers seem to have abandoned the idea of nuanced storytelling. Honestly, all the characters I loved the most are dead. Instead of expounding upon the wonderfully gray threads laid in ShB, they backtracked and shat all over the themes of that story.

While I don't really have any issues with the Scions as characters (except for Y'shtola) I honestly resent the fact that they all escaped the absolutely absurd series of events that made up the end of EW and are still alive and kicking while all of the people I cared about are dead. Just being around them really annoys me right now. What on earth could they present me with that would entice me to continue? They seem eager to abandon all of the plot points that made me invested in the story to begin with. Am I going to care about going to Meracydia/Corvos/New World, "proving myself" to whatever new people I meet there, solving their huge problems for them and ultimately becoming their savior? Doesn't sound appealing to me at all. Been there, done that more times than I can count.

And as much as I like Vrtra and feel sorry for him and his sister, again I feel pretty bitter that I am going to help him with his pain that he's been holding onto for 5k years when I was just told that it's objectively wrong to hold on to or change the past and that I should just always "forge ahead" and embrace change, good or bad, lest I end up so bored that I want to kill myself.

The preaching disgusts me. The lack of nuance disgusts me. The inconsistencies disgust me. A battle of "values" does not appeal to me since they have shown that it's more a case of they will tell me what my values are instead of my actually having a choice.

So, for me at least, they'd have to come up with something pretty extraordinary to get me to have the level of investment in this game that I had going into EW. My sub ends in a couple of days so I guess I'll just wait and see what the future holds.

[AnaviAnael]

I’ll just say when the confirmed most expensive animation this expansion was animating estinien’s foot….there’s something wrong. Couldn’t show the sundering. Couldn’t show the Hydaelyn vs Zodiark fight. My hateful bias towards this expansion aside, i just can’t fathom how you can have this big epic conclusion in the making and not have any cinematics whatsoever outside of trailers.

What makes it even worse is that cutscene is dependent on the player choosing Estinien as the person who comes to meet them in their room. It's not a regular part of the story.

[Lauront]

I can't think of any nicer way to put this, they're appealing to softies, that's about it. The kind of player that reaches for the tissues during their msq reaction twitch stream whenever a slow piano track starts playing during a cutscene. They don't want their faves to die so a fake-out is good enough to get them screaming MOST COMPELLING STORY IN MMO HISTORY! And, naturally, they eat up any slice of life fluff cutscene or uncharacteristically cutesy behavior. Somehow they thought that this sort of consumer is now their largest demographic because they happen to be the loudest with their praise, when really most of the players just want a story that's, like, good. One that makes sense and is tonally consistent.

It also probably doesn't help that Ishikawa seems to personally enjoy it as well. She hyperfocuses on character interactions a lot. Good for side quests, good for fleshing out relationships between the main cast when necessary (and I felt it was very apt in SHB because we weren't a tightly knit group beforehand), but bad for when that's all been said and done and it's time to get to the conflict.

I realize this is condescending of me to say but I'm far too annoyed by it to care. All the prolific content creators who get clicks through their teary-eyed overreactions piss me off so hard these days, but that seems to be the kind of content SE wants to generate. Why else would they keep referencing Haurchefant to the point of every other dialogue option being ASBSAH and them designing an entire ultimate around an AO3 fix-it fic in which he survives?

Couldn't agree more. I guess I'm not the target audience for streamers, and the few times I've tuned into 14 streams, I just ended up hitting X not too long into it. Too overly emotional and little of value in the content for me. I also agree that it is an error to assume that all their playerbase values this slice of life, touchy feely stuff - like others said, it's fine in moderation but now that it is seeping into the MSQ more and more, it's hard to avoid it. Of course you need proper gathering of feedback, that hits on fairly granular/specific feedback about the story, and then to analyse this feedback, and I seriously doubt they do this at the moment. Even so, it's good to see some critical feedback is making it their way. I can't see myself playing 10 more years of this game if 6.1 is an indication of what's to come.

[Rulakir]

Re: streamers

Zepla's reactions in her playthrough were based, including being pissed off at the end of Elpis. Unfortunately, like all streamers, she has an audience to pander to who pay her bills so of course she changed her tune afterwards and started parroting their feedback.

I've mentioned before that Rich Campbell was an Ascian fan until his viewers started threatening his sponsorships and since then he just mirrors his audience.

Streamers are the worst place to get feedback because they're performers who are for the most part trying to keep their viewers happy and engaged because that's how they make money. You're generally not going to get authentic reactions from them.

What on earth could they present me with that would entice me to continue? They seem eager to abandon all of the plot points that made me invested in the story to begin with.

This. I genuinely do not understand the thought process behind rushing the conclusion to a story people loved, mishandling it so badly in the process, and then expecting to keep people hooked. I get the impression Yoshi-P legitimately thinks all players are like the WoL was depicted in EW, who just love going new places for the sake of it and fighting ever more challenging foes. The thing is I can get that in any given MMO. What I can't get in most of them is an immersive story.

I'm left feeling the same way of what do I have to look forward to because EW put an end to everything I was invested in and in an unsatisfactory way. Even if I do see something that grabs my attention (I haven't yet) I feel I shouldn't bother getting attached to anyone who isn't a Scion. Even that's secondary to my concerns about what 'values' are going to be thrust upon my character in the future since nuance has been tossed aside. Seeing as how I didn't feel I was ethically on the same page as the writers in EW it certainly does not inspire confidence in their storytelling going forward.

Also, while I'm glad to see new faces in the thread, I'm also sad that we're increasingly losing people like PawPaw who have unsubscribed over this. Not that I blame them.

[Lauront]

Two of the biggest problems I have with the story:

1. Dynamis. Introduced last minute as this big plot device and will probably never be mentioned again.

I can only hope we're that fortunate.

2. The Endsinger. Fighting her didn't feel like some epic conclusion, she wasn't even worthy of her own boss theme. Phase one was a remix of all the other final bosses and phase 2 was a remix of The Maker's Ruin. She didn't even have a second form. Defeating her didn't feel as heroic as saving Eorzea from Ultima Weapon, stopping Thordan, or saving the First from Emet-Selch.

I absolutely loathe it as a fight. She's meant to represent multiple stars' worth of despair. It does make something of a mockery of dynamis, IMO, but on top of it, the entire fight and its sequences - Scions included - make me cringe. I dread getting it in DF.

This. I genuinely do not understand the thought process behind rushing the conclusion to a story people loved, mishandling it so badly in the process, and then expecting to keep people hooked. I get the impression Yoshi-P legitimately thinks all players are like the WoL was depicted in EW, who just love going new places for the sake of it and fighting ever more challenging foes. The thing is I can get that in any given MMO. What I can't get in most of them is an immersive story.

It's annoying, frankly. There needs to be an allowance for the fact that there are many different character archetypes which people enjoy in an (MMO)RPG. Not just Yoshi's singular vision of it. If they didn't keep asking the players to reflect on their own thoughts, experiences and tastes, and also their characters', I could excuse it, but he almost acts as though we're all a single hivemind in what our own character ("WOL") is like.

[anhaato]

I miss characters having interactions like Estinien and Ysayle so bad. For someone who claims to like darker stories Ishikawa sure hates writing the most basic disagreements between main cast members, and even in the rare instance she does there’s always one who’s obviously right. Unless Maehiro graces us with his writing again now that FFXVI is done I don’t expect we’ll ever get that again after people had the audacity to claim it was sexist of him to make Estinien and Ysayle bicker and then kill Ysayle off. Sexist! As if Haurchefant wasn’t offed just a couple levels prior! The reaction if they killed off Yshtola would be much the same only worse, but god I wish they would do it anyway. Only Maehiro has had the nerve to kill off 2 main characters in a single patch story, we need that back and SOON.

[PawPaw]

I get the impression Yoshi-P legitimately thinks all players are like the WoL was depicted in EW, who just love going new places for the sake of it and fighting ever more challenging foes.

Honestly, we just went to the edge of the damn universe and fought the Macguffin of DESPAIR. What the actual f*** are they going to throw at us that's more threatening? The Rift? The scale just doesn't seem to match. And I somehow have zero interest in fighting any local warlords or getting involved in local politics right now .

If I could actually decide what my character did at this moment, she would take a Leave of Absence and wander around alone getting drunk and into bar brawls and questioning all her life choices. She's in mourning.

[Rulakir]

If I could actually decide what my character did at this moment, she would take a Leave of Absence and wander around alone getting drunk and into bar brawls and questioning all her life choices. She's in mourning.

I can't handle any more Scion hypocrisy either. As Teraq mentioned, we're seemingly about to try and save Vrtra's sister. Nothing gets under my skin more than "rules for thee, but not for me", but that is thematically the protagonists now. Is it any wonder I can't stand them anymore after EW?

I'm amazed whenever anyone says EW had a happy ending. I struggle to think of how it could be worse if you're a fan of anyone but the plot armored protagonists. I would visit the unsundered Ancients in the aetherial sea if I could, not just Emet and Hythlodaeus. I want to listen and learn, not go on a Skalla redeux. Accepting the story as is, it should be a time for reflection.

[redheadturk]

Re: streamers

Zepla's reactions in her playthrough were based, including being pissed off at the end of Elpis. Unfortunately, like all streamers, she has an audience to pander to who pay her bills so of course she changed her tune afterwards and started parroting their feedback.

I've mentioned before that Rich Campbell was an Ascian fan until his viewers started threatening his sponsorships and since then he just mirrors his audience.

Streamers are the worst place to get feedback because they're performers who are for the most part trying to keep their viewers happy and engaged because that's how they make money. You're generally not going to get authentic reactions from them.



This. I genuinely do not understand the thought process behind rushing the conclusion to a story people loved, mishandling it so badly in the process, and then expecting to keep people hooked. I get the impression Yoshi-P legitimately thinks all players are like the WoL was depicted in EW, who just love going new places for the sake of it and fighting ever more challenging foes. The thing is I can get that in any given MMO. What I can't get in most of them is an immersive story.

I'm left feeling the same way of what do I have to look forward to because EW put an end to everything I was invested in and in an unsatisfactory way. Even if I do see something that grabs my attention (I haven't yet) I feel I shouldn't bother getting attached to anyone who isn't a Scion. Even that's secondary to my concerns about what 'values' are going to be thrust upon my character in the future since nuance has been tossed aside. Seeing as how I didn't feel I was ethically on the same page as the writers in EW it certainly does not inspire confidence in their storytelling going forward.

Also, while I'm glad to see new faces in the thread, I'm also sad that we're increasingly losing people like PawPaw who have unsubscribed over this. Not that I blame them.

^this. Venat lovers need to either stay the heck out of people's streams or sit down, shut up, and let them like what they like instead of threatening their livelihood. I love the Ancients, and I ain't gonna let a bunch of brainless people who want nothing more than to suck Venat's teats shut me up about it, even if I was making money streaming. It isn't fair that once you're a larger streamer you can't get away with liking what you want.

[aveyond-dreams]

The problem is that Venat has a lot to like at the beginning, when she engages in banter/teasing the party and comes across as genuinely caring about the player. I can respect why someone would like her for these things, but after the ending of Elpis everything just spirals into chaos and the character flies too far from what originally made me like her in the first place.

Ultimately it was a betrayal, and it is unsurprising to hear that the FFXIV community yet again took to brigading against people for not towing the line when it comes to story reactions. I'd tell people to grow a spine but sponsors caving to external pressure is seemingly commonplace and I cannot blame anyone for not wanting to lose out on their income.

It will be interesting to see what the FFXIV reddit/twitter crowd think of FFXVI if it re-introduces the "problematic" writing style of Heavensward that saw us get characters with meaningful development arcs that concluded at appropriate points in the story, and situations that displayed the brutal realities of medieval life. I can't wait for them to cancel whole nation states over standard fare like noblewomen not being able to inherit property, or the sort of abuse that women and children undergo during war in that era. Will they also be mad that there may be no pride representation in that game despite the concept being largely irrelevant to Valisthea? Who can say.

I loathe the thought of having to cede this territory to them. FFXIV is still my favorite video game after all this time and to see it twisted to the whims of social media crowds that are notorious for being as superficial as they are moblike is difficult to accept.