Healers need an overhaul

[Silverbane]

That's because Silverbane is "right" and there's nothing wrong.

Correct. There's nothing seriously wrong with SGE, SCH, or WHM because I enjoy the heck out of playing them. And whether you enjoy a game or not is the only real criteria for judging the game. [I say nothing about AST because I haven't played AST in literally years -- it wasn't my style.]

However, some of the posters here can't stand the idea that anyone is happy with healing as it is, because as it is isn't their idea of what healing should be. When the occasional brave soul drops in to post that they enjoy healing and that it does not need an overhaul, that soul gets insulted and harassed until they leave.

People shouldn't listen to these self-anointed elites who find healing "boring," these purists who think it's wrong for a "healer" class to have to DPS (even though this game has always required that), or these narcissists who want a more complicated (and more potent? they don't say) DPS kit for healers: playing a "healer" class can be a blast!

If a player approaches "healing" with an open mind, that is.

As with anything, if someone goes into an activity with specific expectations and an attitude that they are entitled to have those expectations met, they'll probably be disappointed -- just like the bitter "healers" (and ex-healers) on this thread.

[Yeastyloins]

Correct. There's nothing seriously wrong with SGE, SCH, or WHM because I enjoy the heck out of playing them. And whether you enjoy a game or not is the only real criteria for judging the game. [I say nothing about AST because I haven't played AST in literally years -- it wasn't my style.]

However, some of the posters here can't stand the idea that anyone is happy with healing as it is, because as it is isn't their idea of what healing should be. When the occasional brave soul drops in to post that they enjoy healing and that it does not need an overhaul, that soul gets insulted and harassed until they leave.

People shouldn't listen to these self-anointed elites who find healing "boring," these purists who think it's wrong for a "healer" class to have to DPS (even though this game has always required that), or these narcissists who want a more complicated (and more potent? they don't say) DPS kit for healers: playing a "healer" class can be a blast!

If a player approaches "healing" with an open mind, that is.

As with anything, if someone goes into an activity with specific expectations and an attitude that they are entitled to have those expectations met, they'll probably be disappointed -- just like the bitter "healers" (and ex-healers) on this thread.

I can tell you right now that healer gameplay, which includes what you do for HEALING and what you do for DPS is utter garbage at the current moment if you are good at it. Fights right now are so scripted that should you optimize properly means you're only healing for about 30% of a fight and then you are stuck spamming 1 button for a DPS loop. Normal content is even more brain dead, barely doing anything if your tank is able to get oxygen brain and simply spamming a couple GCD heals should your tank be more of the incompetent type. That implies that:

A: Damage isn't coming out in a manner that allows for healers to engage in their kits given most fights are preshield the big hit, then spam AoE heals.
B: The only interesting healing checks in fights come from multiple hits in a short time such as ACT 4 and Curtain Call in P4s and become trivial once you get some gear, not even full bis, due to the fact that heals tend to be over overpowered. Not to mention most healers have a multi-hit solution (ex. bell, macro) which then dilutes the experience into "oh just use this" with no creativity.
C: Optimizing means that you spend less time healing. The reward should be interesting gameplay. DPS and Tanks are rewarded with creative and optimized gameplay. Healers are given the wonderful opportunity to spam dosis/glare/broil/malefic.

Before you say: well this will be hard for more casual players: we shouldn't be asking the devs to design the game based on the lowest common denominator.

[Silverbane]

I can tell you right now that healer gameplay, which includes what you do for HEALING and what you do for DPS is utter garbage at the current moment if you are good at it.

I disagree. But just as I prefer sweet desserts and my spouse prefers savory ones, what I find enjoyable in FFXIV may not be what you find enjoyable.

The central conceit of most of the "healing is broken" advocates is that other people play the game and enjoy the game for the same reasons they do. And that conceit is demonstrably false: Even among these critics, it's explicit that within their ranks are people who prefer diametrically opposite kinds of healing (e.g., no-DPS healing versus complex-DPS-kit healing).

Yet these complainers insist that healing is broken as an objective fact, instead of just being their subjective opinion. This delusion and the tendency to hyperbole that it creates is in my opinion the primary reason that SE should not and probably will not listen to these complaints.

If the critics can't understand why I find running SGE or SCH fun even though they don't, their opinion on what's wrong and how to fix it has no utility, because SE isn't making the game just for them (or for me, but I'm not complaining).

But rather than even try to understand why I enjoy it, many of these critics instead accuse me of being incompetent, or trolling, or whatever, none of which accusations have any basis in fact. Others do everything they can to silence me -- no doubt afraid that other people will see what I say is true. This attitude is yet another reason why SE should not and probably will not pay any attention to these critics, because an MMO requires compromise and accommodation of differences in the player base, and these critics have demonstrated that they are not disposed to do that.

[Yeastyloins]

I disagree. But just as I prefer sweet desserts and my spouse prefers savory ones, what I find enjoyable in FFXIV may not be what you find enjoyable.

The central conceit of most of the "healing is broken" advocates is that other people play the game and enjoy the game for the same reasons they do. And that conceit is demonstrably false: Even among these critics, it's explicit that within their ranks are people who prefer diametrically opposite kinds of healing (e.g., no-DPS healing versus complex-DPS-kit healing).

Yet these complainers insist that healing is broken as an objective fact, instead of just being their subjective opinion. This delusion and the tendency to hyperbole that it creates is in my opinion the primary reason that SE should not and probably will not listen to these complaints.

If the critics can't understand why I find running SGE or SCH fun even though they don't, their opinion on what's wrong and how to fix it has no utility, because SE isn't making the game just for them (or for me, but I'm not complaining).

But rather than even try to understand why I enjoy it, many of these critics instead accuse me of being incompetent or trolling, or whatever, none of which accusations have any basis in fact. Others do everything they can to silence me -- no doubt afraid that other people will see what I say is true. This attitude is yet another reason why SE should not and probably will not pay any attention to these critics, because an MMO requires compromise and accommodation of differences in the player base, and these critics have demonstrated that they are not disposed to do that.

Have you healed a savage tier when it was current? For example, like did you do P1s-P4s before 6.1 came out? This isn't going to be a "wow you casual rat, go do some real content" type response but rather I am asking this in order to get your perspective of your experience. How you play healers (or any job) in normal content vs harder content can vary and can highlight strengths and weaknesses of designs.

[Silverbane]

Have you healed a savage tier when it was current?

Why do you think that question is relevant?
After all, how much of the subscriber base of FFXIV subscribers don't do savage tier content when it's current?
Not much, right?

Someone posted that end-game content like savage is just a sop thrown to a small number of players to give them something to do until the next content release. If that's the case, then SE making the business decision to keep the vast majority of the subscribers happy by not optimizing the combat system for content that only a small percentage of the player base even attempt can't really be argued with.

So players doing savage and ultimate get to do it with a battle system optimized for casuals, because profitability trumps everything in game design. I submit that if players who want to run savage can't find a way to enjoy doing it with a casuals-optimized kit, this isn't the game for them: you can't get chateaubriand at Red Robin, so if that's what you gotta have, go to another restaurant.

But to answer your question: years ago, I was a member of static and we cleared some harder end-game content. However, because being in a static was more scheduling hassle, drama, and time commitment than it was worth to me, I'm not doing that anymore. So because trying to clear savage content without being in a static impresses me as masochistic, I don't.

But then, I'm also not insisting that SE make changes. I'm happy with things as they are now, I was happy with things as they were in the past, and I'll be happy with whatever SE does in the future ... or I'll find another game to play. Maybe that's just a skillset I have that some others here lack: finding ways to enjoy the games I choose to play, without insisting that the games change to please me.

[IDontPetLalas]

Why do you think that question is relevant?
After all, how much of the subscriber base of FFXIV subscribers don't do savage tier content when it's current?
Not much, right?

Someone posted that end-game content like savage is just a sop thrown to a small number of players to give them something to do until the next content release. If that's the case, then SE making the business decision to keep the vast majority of the subscribers happy by not optimizing the combat system for content that only a small percentage of the player base even attempt can't really be argued with.

So players doing savage and ultimate get to do it with a battle system optimized for casuals, because profitability trumps everything in game design. I submit that if players who want to run savage can't find a way to enjoy doing it with a casuals-optimized kit, this isn't the game for them: you can't get chateaubriand at Red Robin, so if that's what you gotta have, go to another restaurant.

But to answer your question: years ago, I was a member of static and we cleared some harder end-game content. However, because being in a static was more scheduling hassle, drama, and time commitment than it was worth to me, I'm not doing that anymore. So because trying to clear savage content without being in a static impresses me as masochistic, I don't.

But then, I'm also not insisting that SE make changes. I'm happy with things as they are now, I was happy with things as they were in the past, and I'll be happy with whatever SE does in the future ... or I'll find another game to play. Maybe that's just a skillset I have that some others here lack: finding ways to enjoy the games I choose to play, without insisting that the games change to please me.

I read that last line and i couldn't help think about these customers a few years ago - see https://www.ladbible.com/news/ryanai...ilets-20220215 . i wouldn't call that a skillset necessarily, more of a coping mechanism, or at its worst- in some games - thankfully we are not at that point Stockholm syndrome.

[Martynek]

Maybe that's just a skillset I have that some others here lack: finding ways to enjoy the games I choose to play, without insisting that the games change to please me.

The game used to appeal to us, back in... well, up until 2019, at the latest. Earlier depending on who you ask.
Then we had people demanding that the game changed to please them. Something which you're treating as utterly unreasonable, but oh, it's all okay, all wonderful when it's to your benefit, isn't it!
And so the game we enjoyed got ruined to appeal to a far less invested demographic. Naturally, few of them actually stayed around, and of the ones who did stay around, even less of them decided to stay in the healing role after realising how utterly vapid it is.
We aren't asking for everything in the game to be the exact same way it used to be. You can have a nice, simple, easy brain white mage. It would just be nice if we could put together a raid group without making a quarter of the group suffer.

[Martynek]

playing a "healer" class can be a blast!

I wish I had some of whatever you're having.

There's nothing seriously wrong with [...] SCH

Okay, I really wish I had some of whatever you're having! In what world is Seraph's inability to cast Fey Blessing or Fey Union not an issue? In what world is Dissipation giving you resources to generate Faerie Gauge, but then making you unable to generate Faerie Gauge not an issue? In what world is Dissipation specifically not affecting the healing potency of the heals you cast with the resource it generates for you not an issue? In what world is Fey Illumination having no effect on over 90% of the game's healing tools not an issue?

Scholar's toolkit feels like it was designed by eight different people who had no forms of communication with one another throughout any stages of the design process.

[LeonKeyh]

Correct. There's nothing seriously wrong with [...] because I enjoy the heck out of playing them. And whether you enjoy a game or not is the only real criteria for judging the game.

Alright, everyone else in the topic doesn't enjoy it. That's the real criteria. You yourself are agreeing that this is a subjective argument but don't recognize that you're in the minority in terms of people who enjoy how it is. SE shouldn't be catering to the minority with anything subjective. They should be catering to the majority.

However, some of the posters here can't stand the idea that anyone is happy with healing as it is,

I don't care that you like how healing is. Congrats, really, I'm glad you enjoy it.

because as it is isn't their idea of what healing should be.

Engaging? Exciting? Useful to the party? Yeah, sorry that we want healing to be more than pressing 1 button for 80% of the fight.

When the occasional brave soul drops in to post that they enjoy healing and that it does not need an overhaul, that soul gets insulted and harassed until they leave.

You're so brave being completely close-minded and attacking the majority of people asking for an overhaul.

People shouldn't listen to these self-anointed elites who find healing "boring,"

People shouldn't listen to people who find pressing 1 button 80% of the time "boring".....right....

these purists who think it's wrong for a "healer" class to have to DPS (even though this game has always required that),

Misrepresentation! No wonder you're good at sniffing them out, you're an expert at it! NOBODY in this thread said ANYTHING about "only healing" and "not DPSing."

or these narcissists who want a more complicated (and more potent? they don't say) DPS kit for healers:

We don't say because it DOESN'T MATTER all that we're looking for is something that isn't 2-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1 for 15-30 minutes. I would argue that I'm not narcissistic but with your track record of seeing yourself in everyone you talk to, I can imagine that I seem that way. I'm not the one in the minority saying I'm "right" about something subjective though. Maybe take some time to look up the definition of that term.

playing a "healer" class can be a blast!

[...]

Healing can be fun if you're looking for some low effort game play. Truck Simulator can be fun too. That doesn't make it engaging and doesn't mean that people feel fulfilled playing it. It also doesn't mean that the suggestions people are making with change that for anyone.

How about instead of screeching and straw manning everyone you tell us how any of these suggestions somehow make healers less fun?

[Silverbane]

Alright, everyone else in the topic doesn't enjoy it. That's the real criteria. You yourself are agreeing that this is a subjective argument but don't recognize that you're in the minority in terms of people who enjoy how it is. SE shouldn't be catering to the minority with anything subjective.

I'm in the minority here because internet forums attract whiners. Especially forums like this one where people are attacked and harassed for saying that things are fine the way they are.

But you have zero evidence that I am not in the majority among the subscriber base that plays healers.

If you believe these forums are in any way indicative of the distribution of opinions in the subscriber base, you're just plain wrong. And you shouldn't need the graduate level courses I took in statistics, psychology, and experimental design to understand why that is (although they certainly help).

I don't care that you like how healing is.

Which is why SE should ignore you: you're too self-centered to give useful advice on an MMO.

How about instead of screeching and straw manning everyone you tell us how any of these suggestions somehow make healers less fun?

LOL. You guys can't even agree on what to change.