Healers need an overhaul

[Dyvid]

I don't think the problem is people just want to cast DPS spells. Rather they are bored and want something to do that helps the raid completion go faster. They want something that is engaging and fun to do during healing downtime.

I've said it in other post but there is more than one say to dps without using dps skills. The focus needs to shifted from pure healer concept to healer/support roles where the healing toolkit is your standard affair, the support system and rotations would be what makes each job different from each other.

[WaxSw]

But because:

1) truth is NOT determined by popularity,
2) there's no reason to believe that the participants in these forums are a representative cross-section of the player base, and
3) people are more likely to post when they have a gripe than when they are happy,

1) Truth is not determined by popularity but by facts and proofs the thing is, there are proofs of the healers problems, we have multiple sources of 1/0 healers parties clearing everything and healer's cast of their main nuke being orders of magnitude above their most used heal in all content

2) This forum IS precisely the source of the widest feedback devs can get thats their whole purpose and the problem with healers is not only forum exclusive, it can be seen in other social media and ingame. When so many samples share the same problems denying them is delusional at best

3)



Even if people post more when they're not happy a topic being repeated over and over and seeing such huge increase of posts complaining about the same topic means more and more people are disliking it. If things were ideal those topics would be very rare to see and exceptions more than the norm after all, How many "Blm need an overhaul" posts have you seen recently?

it doesn't matter a damn whether I'm in the minority. I'm still right.

kudos for being so confidently incorrect, takes some real effort

[Silverbane]

This, from someone who confuses the offering of different opinions in support of fixing an issue as disagreeing that there's an issue.

That's because just saying "healers need an overhaul" is non-actionable. It's useless whining that SE has no choice but to ignore.
Unless there's a consensus on what's broken, and even better how to fix it, there's nothing productive SE can derive from this thread, because if SE were to adopt some people's proposals, it would just piss the other people off even more.
And y'all aren't even trying to reach a consensus, you just keep harping on your own personal preferences.

I get that it's somewhat therapeutic to bitch about stuff. But don't delude yourself into thinking it's going to result in a positive change. Reading this thread, it's easy to see that SE will never make all of you happy, or even most of you.

But I'm happy already, so that's fine.

It's SE's game. It's SE's prerogative to say what is and isn't appropriate for each class.
Fortunately for me, I enjoy playing 2.5 of their healer classes (WHM takes a back seat to SCH and SGE), one of their tank classes (WAR of course), and one of their ranged physical DPS classes (DNC) quite a lot. I can have fun on any of them. And I have been, with changes in what classes I preferred over time, for years now.

So SE is most welcome to my money (and my spouse's too BTW), and frankly, that's the feedback that matters most to SE.

Unfortunately for many here, none of the FFXIV healers are the healers they want to play, but they just can't quit FFXIV healing for reasons I will defer speculating about. So they come here to complain, like each other's posts for the feels, and tear down anyone who doesn't agree with the righteous of their cause, deluding themselves that this echo chamber they've created with their screeds and their polemics is reflective of a larger reality.

But I guess that's the new internet normal, right?

[LeonKeyh]

Those were not my points, and anyone with a 4th grade or better reading level will see that.
You're not doing your own reputation any favors by posting such blatant misrepresentations of what other people wrote. But that seems to be the norm for Healer Justice Warriors, so I'm not surprised.

Unless you can demonstrate the ability to have a rational discussion on these issues, you'll will be lucky if SE even pretends to listen to you. People who blatantly misrepresent positions they disagree with don't deserve any better than that.

I can't have a "rational" discussion with somebody who isn't being rational. I swear I feel like you're talking about yourself with misrepresenting positions (i.e. claiming the fact that people are suggesting different ways to fix the same issue means that they somehow disagree with each other and that the "right" thing to do is nothing because despite a majority of people talking about issues with healing), grouping everyone that disagrees with you into some boogieman group to disregard everything that is being said.

You want to start over and have a rational discussion? Be rational, make your point.

That's because just saying "healers need an overhaul" is non-actionable. It's useless whining that SE has no choice but to ignore.
Unless there's a consensus on what's broken, and even better how to fix it, there's nothing productive SE can derive from this thread, because if SE were to adopt some people's proposals, it would just piss the other people off even more.
And y'all aren't even trying to reach a consensus, you just keep harping on your own personal preferences.

More misrepresentation; Everyone has agreed what the issue with healers are, just because people have put together TONS of ways to fix it doesn't mean that people don't agree with what's wrong with it, it means that they could do many different things to fix it.

Healer numbers have declined; Gameplay for healers is objectively the simplistic hitting 2 every 30 seconds and 1 until someone eventually takes damage. WAR you don't even need to heal at all as several players have cleared a ton of content SOLO with WAR (or with no healer). That right there shows that healers are near useless to the party. There is objective information about why healer's position isn't where it should be. Healers should be needed in a group, the majority of people agree with that. The people are just separated on what they would prefer the fix to be. Should healers be needed in a group because the group is taking more damage and would die if the healer wasn't there? Should healers add more to DPS or at least have something more fun than "2-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1" so they at least have more fun? Should healers be able to provide support to DPS for an indirect DPS increase? These are just different ways to fix the issue that healers are largely boring and are not necessary in most instances. If you're putting together a premade, you would pick an extra DPS instead of a healer.

Unfortunately for many here, none of the FFXIV healers are the healers they want to play, but they just can't quit FFXIV healing for reasons I will defer speculating about. So they come here to complain, like each other's posts for the feels, and tear down anyone who doesn't agree with the righteous of their cause, deluding themselves that this echo chamber they've created with their screeds and their polemics is reflective of a larger reality.

But I guess that's the new internet normal, right?

Again with the irony. "I like it so I'm the right one." You're the one in the echo chamber. I play healer because I enjoy it but that doesn't mean that it doesn't have any problems. You need to disconnect those ideas from each other.

[Semirhage]

That's because just saying "healers need an overhaul" is non-actionable. It's useless whining that SE has no choice but to ignore.
Unless there's a consensus on what's broken, and even better how to fix it, there's nothing productive SE can derive from this thread, because if SE were to adopt some people's proposals, it would just piss the other people off even more.
And y'all aren't even trying to reach a consensus, you just keep harping on your own personal preferences.

I get that it's somewhat therapeutic to bitch about stuff. But don't delude yourself into thinking it's going to result in a positive change. Reading this thread, it's easy to see that SE will never make all of you happy, or even most of you.

But I'm happy already, so that's fine.

It's SE's game. It's SE's prerogative to say what is and isn't appropriate for each class.
Fortunately for me, I enjoy playing 2.5 of their healer classes (WHM takes a back seat to SCH and SGE), one of their tank classes (WAR of course), and one of their ranged physical DPS classes (DNC) quite a lot. I can have fun on any of them. And I have been, with changes in what classes I preferred over time, for years now.

So SE is most welcome to my money (and my spouse's too BTW), and frankly, that's the feedback that matters most to SE.

Unfortunately for many here, none of the FFXIV healers are the healers they want to play, but they just can't quit FFXIV healing for reasons I will defer speculating about. So they come here to complain, like each other's posts for the feels, and tear down anyone who doesn't agree with the righteous of their cause, deluding themselves that this echo chamber they've created with their screeds and their polemics is reflective of a larger reality.

But I guess that's the new internet normal, right?

I already quit healing. I wish it were actually fun to play, or designed with actual care or engagement in mind. Instead the whole role has been dumbed down to please people who don't care about healing, and instead like to snot at people who *do* because the role is catered to them now.

[MintnHoney]

That's because just saying "healers need an overhaul" is non-actionable.

A general mission statement is typically seen as non-actionable, because it's an overview and not the action plan.

It's useless whining that SE has no choice but to ignore.

In a company, that might be true.
From professional Q&A, that's probably true.
From the general public providing feedback? No, that's just feedback.

Unless there's a consensus on what's broken

Healers: Downtime
Issue: Boring

and even better how to fix it

Suggested solutions provided within.

there's nothing productive SE can derive from this thread

Except that there is a problem:
Healers: Downtime
Issue: Boring

because if SE were to adopt some people's proposals, it would just piss the other people off even more.

That's the beauty of this being feedback, of us not being on the professional team, and the dev team being the professional team responsible for design and implementation: we can provide suggestions. We are providing many suggestions, many of which are different. That's not a bad thing, because there are hundreds of solutions to the problem presented.
However, it's really up to them to figure out how best to implement any changes. We know this, and you might know this (I can't tell if you do, because you seem to know some things and then you become a caricature of Amber Heard's lawyers), which is why all we can do is provide feedback.
Yes, even if it's not to your standard.

And y'all aren't even trying to reach a consensus, you just keep harping on your own personal preferences.

The consensus has been reached. I've tried to explain it to Gemina, I'll try to explain it to you as well (using as few words as possible, just to make sure the idea is as concise as possible, for your benefit):
Healers: Downtime
Issue: Boring

No matter how it's spun, no matter how difficult it is for each individual player to express the exact pinpoint and specific issue that they have with any and all of the healers, the issue is ultimately boiled down to being that Healers are boring, with the most glaring reason being that downtime is not engaging enough.

But I'm happy already, so that's fine.

I'm not sure I believe that, considering how and where this came out, and what followed after.
Nevertheless, if you're truly that happy, and everything is already good, and you really don't think we'll be successful, then don't mind us.

But I guess that's the new internet normal, right?

Whatever keeps the valium flowing, amirite?

[Elesh]

There is one very good point to a part of Silverbane's comments - suggestions are usually pointless. Any professional dev team has a laundry list of 'ideas for things they could do'. The probably have pages of discarded ideas, implementations, etc. that just didn't fit. Heck, nearly every idea we've proposed they've probably already considered at some point or another. They don't need our ideas.

And they don't need to know numbers - because their analytics and data can tell them that.

The one thing they do need, and what - if you really read deep into this thread is conveyed albeit surrounded by way too many suggestions(and yes, I'm not saying I'm innocent in this) - is how playing the game makes us feel.

Put simply:
During high end content like savage/extreme, the moment to moment experience of healing doesn't require much involvement from the healer, and this is something many of us do not find as engaging as we would like.

Feedback done.

[Deceptus]

More misrepresentation; Everyone has agreed what the issue with healers are, just because people have put together TONS of ways to fix it doesn't mean that people don't agree with what's wrong with it, it means that they could do many different things to fix it.

And more importantly:

IT'S NOT OUR JOB TO COME UP WITH THE SOLUTIONS.

We don't get paid to design the game.

Our responsibility is to detect the issues we have as paying customers (and we have, time and time again). We don't have to come up with the solutions as well. Saying otherwise is just passing the buck from the designers to us.

We've done OUR part, the dev team needs to do theirs. They can either meet us in the middle somewhere, or ignore us and watch the healers continue to leave.

Which is probably, IMHO, why they're designing systems to play solo.

Put simply:
During high end content like savage/extreme, the moment to moment experience of healing doesn't require much involvement from the healer, and this is something many of us do not find as engaging as we would like.

Feedback done.

Dungeons don't need a healer at all
The first 3 stages of the normal 8 man were completed without a healer
The first stage of the savage 8 man was completed without a healer
The first two EX trials were completed without a healer.

Healers are essentially pointless in current FFXIV content. That should be the feedback they are receiving.

Except when we tried to bring that up, our question was blatantly miscontrued and we were to told to go play ultimate if we were unhappy.

[Grann-Goro]

I already quit healing. I wish it were actually fun to play, or designed with actual care or engagement in mind. Instead the whole role has been dumbed down to please people who don't care about healing, and instead like to snot at people who *do* because the role is catered to them now.

Same here o/

[Elesh]

And more importantly:

IT'S NOT OUR JOB TO COME UP WITH THE SOLUTIONS.

We don't get paid to design the game.

Our responsibility is to detect the issues we have as paying customers (and we have, time and time again). We don't have to come up with the solutions as well. Saying otherwise is just passing the buck from the designers to us.

We've done OUR part, the dev team needs to do theirs. They can either meet us in the middle somewhere, or ignore us and watch the healers continue to leave.

Which is probably, IMHO, why they're designing systems to play solo.



Dungeons don't need a healer at all
The first 3 stages of the normal 8 man were completed without a healer
The first stage of the savage 8 man was completed without a healer
The first two EX trials were completed without a healer.

Healers are essentially pointless in current FFXIV content. That should be the feedback they are receiving.

Except when we tried to bring that up, our question was blatantly miscontrued and we were to told to go play ultimate if we were unhappy.

Not to put too fine a point on it: That feedback is useless to developers.

So ya, I'm not surprised you get a snarky reply to it.

A warrior solod P1N. That happening doesn't mean that all classes except warrior are unnecessary.(although one of my friends would certainly agree with that sentiment...)

I get that you're upset... but throwing insults like calling healers 'pointless' and extremes around and using extreme outliers to "prove a point" isn't helpful to anyone.

I don't know why people struggle so much with the idea of keeping their feedback personal and self-reflective rather than speaking in extremes or generalizations of large groups of people they falsely assume are monoliths rather than groups of individuals...