Healers need an overhaul

[Silverbane]

I also love how your points are:
...

Those were not my points, and anyone with a 4th grade or better reading level will see that.
You're not doing your own reputation any favors by posting such blatant misrepresentations of what other people wrote. But that seems to be the norm for Healer Justice Warriors, so I'm not surprised.

Unless you can demonstrate the ability to have a rational discussion on these issues, you'll will be lucky if SE even pretends to listen to you. People who blatantly misrepresent positions they disagree with don't deserve any better than that.

[MintnHoney]

But that seems to be the norm for Healer Justice Warriors, so I'm not surprised.

This, from someone who confuses the offering of different opinions in support of fixing an issue as disagreeing that there's an issue.

[Silverbane]

This, from someone who confuses the offering of different opinions in support of fixing an issue as disagreeing that there's an issue.

That's because just saying "healers need an overhaul" is non-actionable. It's useless whining that SE has no choice but to ignore.
Unless there's a consensus on what's broken, and even better how to fix it, there's nothing productive SE can derive from this thread, because if SE were to adopt some people's proposals, it would just piss the other people off even more.
And y'all aren't even trying to reach a consensus, you just keep harping on your own personal preferences.

I get that it's somewhat therapeutic to bitch about stuff. But don't delude yourself into thinking it's going to result in a positive change. Reading this thread, it's easy to see that SE will never make all of you happy, or even most of you.

But I'm happy already, so that's fine.

It's SE's game. It's SE's prerogative to say what is and isn't appropriate for each class.
Fortunately for me, I enjoy playing 2.5 of their healer classes (WHM takes a back seat to SCH and SGE), one of their tank classes (WAR of course), and one of their ranged physical DPS classes (DNC) quite a lot. I can have fun on any of them. And I have been, with changes in what classes I preferred over time, for years now.

So SE is most welcome to my money (and my spouse's too BTW), and frankly, that's the feedback that matters most to SE.

Unfortunately for many here, none of the FFXIV healers are the healers they want to play, but they just can't quit FFXIV healing for reasons I will defer speculating about. So they come here to complain, like each other's posts for the feels, and tear down anyone who doesn't agree with the righteous of their cause, deluding themselves that this echo chamber they've created with their screeds and their polemics is reflective of a larger reality.

But I guess that's the new internet normal, right?

[MintnHoney]

That's because just saying "healers need an overhaul" is non-actionable.

A general mission statement is typically seen as non-actionable, because it's an overview and not the action plan.

It's useless whining that SE has no choice but to ignore.

In a company, that might be true.
From professional Q&A, that's probably true.
From the general public providing feedback? No, that's just feedback.

Unless there's a consensus on what's broken

Healers: Downtime
Issue: Boring

and even better how to fix it

Suggested solutions provided within.

there's nothing productive SE can derive from this thread

Except that there is a problem:
Healers: Downtime
Issue: Boring

because if SE were to adopt some people's proposals, it would just piss the other people off even more.

That's the beauty of this being feedback, of us not being on the professional team, and the dev team being the professional team responsible for design and implementation: we can provide suggestions. We are providing many suggestions, many of which are different. That's not a bad thing, because there are hundreds of solutions to the problem presented.
However, it's really up to them to figure out how best to implement any changes. We know this, and you might know this (I can't tell if you do, because you seem to know some things and then you become a caricature of Amber Heard's lawyers), which is why all we can do is provide feedback.
Yes, even if it's not to your standard.

And y'all aren't even trying to reach a consensus, you just keep harping on your own personal preferences.

The consensus has been reached. I've tried to explain it to Gemina, I'll try to explain it to you as well (using as few words as possible, just to make sure the idea is as concise as possible, for your benefit):
Healers: Downtime
Issue: Boring

No matter how it's spun, no matter how difficult it is for each individual player to express the exact pinpoint and specific issue that they have with any and all of the healers, the issue is ultimately boiled down to being that Healers are boring, with the most glaring reason being that downtime is not engaging enough.

But I'm happy already, so that's fine.

I'm not sure I believe that, considering how and where this came out, and what followed after.
Nevertheless, if you're truly that happy, and everything is already good, and you really don't think we'll be successful, then don't mind us.

But I guess that's the new internet normal, right?

Whatever keeps the valium flowing, amirite?

[IDontPetLalas]

That's because just saying "healers need an overhaul" is non-actionable. It's useless whining that SE has no choice but to ignore.
Unless there's a consensus on what's broken, and even better how to fix it, there's nothing productive SE can derive from this thread, because if SE were to adopt some people's proposals, it would just piss the other people off even more.
And y'all aren't even trying to reach a consensus, you just keep harping on your own personal preferences. (snip)
I get that it's somewhat therapeutic to bitch about stuff. But don't delude yourself into thinking it's going to result in a positive change. Reading this thread, it's easy to see that SE will never make all of you happy, or even most of you.
But I'm happy already, so that's fine.
It's SE's game. It's SE's prerogative to say what is and isn't appropriate for each class.

Unfortunately for many here, none of the FFXIV healers are the healers they want to play, but they just can't quit FFXIV healing for reasons I will defer speculating about. So they come here to complain, like each other's posts for the feels, and tear down anyone who doesn't agree with the righteous of their cause, deluding themselves that this echo chamber they've created with their screeds and their polemics is reflective of a larger reality.
But I guess that's the new internet normal, right?

1- There doesn't need to be a consensus for SE to be able to derive that there are some serious issues. After hundreds of post and numerous threads there are a number of issues that keep popping up. The fact that some of them might conflict isn't surprising- that does not mean that nothing can be done. it means that there is a lot of data to look at trends and do various types of analysis and that is actually extremely good.

2- You have no clue at all about what will make me happy, nor about about what I consider positive change. I work on projects for a living, this past weekend we just successfully put a a 2 year project successfully into Production. it takes a LOT to discourage me.

3. this is our game- by that I mean SE and us, the customers. We both need each other. SE does not decide alone what is "appropriate" for each job, if it did have that attitude the game would not be where it is now. If you enjoy healing now, great1 I'm sure other people do, just as I am also sure that some people do not and want changes.

4 Your last point regarding why people post? Honestly, why is that even necessary to speculate about? If anything that is an example of the 'new internet normal" that you seem to deride, otherwise the posts here have been aimed at trying to get more attention at improving healer engagement in an objective way for the most part . of course each person will bring their own personal experiences into their opinion. Accusing people of being delusional is not reflective of reality.

[Silverbane]

2- You have no clue at all about what will make me happy, nor about about what I consider positive change.

I never said I did. I wasn't even replying to you, was I?
Indeed, I don't know you, so I don't even care what makes you happy.

3. this is our game- by that I mean SE and us, the customers.

It's not "our" game, it's their game (morally, legally and practically) and we just subscribe to it.

We both need each other.

Would you walk into a McDonald's and proclaim how much they need you and you need them? Of course not. Do you pen missives to Netflix or Disney+ or Amazon prime waxing eloquent about your mutual needs? Again, of course not.
Same with FFXIV.

I don't need SE: I can find other games to play.
And they don't need me, in particular, and maybe not even people with my tastes: they have plenty of other subscribers. The same is almost certainly true for you.

If every single poster that complains about healers in the English-language forums quit tomorrow, if SE noticed at all, they'd probably just notice how much less contentious the forums are.

[IDontPetLalas]

I never said I did. I wasn't even replying to you, was I?
Indeed, I don't know you, so I don't even care what makes you happy.

Indeed, you seem to make it abundantly clear that you don't care what makes other people happy in a public forum thread that concerns itself about what could make the healer community happier, not a specific healer.

It's not "our" game, it's their game (morally, legally and practically) and we just subscribe to it.

Now this is quite funny. What does this even mean, when you think about it? yes, we know SE owns the game - but are you saying that it is immoral to provide feedback or to disagree with their design approach? It's impractical to do so? Why? What are the consequences and to whom, does someone get hurt?

Would you walk into a McDonald's and proclaim how much they need you and you need them? Of course not. Do you pen missives to Netflix or Disney+ or Amazon prime waxing eloquent about your mutual needs? Again, of course not.
Same with FFXIV.

I don't need SE: I can find other games to play.
And they don't need me, in particular, and maybe not even people with my tastes: they have plenty of other subscribers. The same is almost certainly true for you.

You know this really had me shaking my head, I don't doubt that you can find other games to play, of course you can. So can any one of us. However once a company starts down the path of "hey, I have plenty of customers , I don't need to think about him, or her" it isn't such a far path to thinking about whole groups of customers or whole types of customers like that, and before you know it- it might not be long before you don't have to worry about customers. At all.

If every single poster that complains about healers in the English-language forums quit tomorrow, if SE noticed at all, they'd probably just notice how much less contentious the forums are.

and your last comment regarding posts relates to what exactly? I mean no one is forcing you to even read this thread, and this is one thread among many that could be judged as contentious. So do you have any helpful suggestion at all to make, or are you going to stick to "life is good, no point in saying anything"?

[Silverbane]

and your last comment regarding posts relates to what exactly?

Your statement that SE needs you. They don't. Not your posts, not your subscription, not you; you're not that special.

Because while every game maker likes to have players and fans, they don't necessarily want presumptuous possessive fanatics who think they know how the game should operate better than the people who have been making it for years. So beyond not needing you, they may not even want you. You may even annoy them, if they bother to notice you at all.

Oh, but you're giving productive feedback, you'll say. No, you and your ilk are just whining, and there's a difference. A difference that your arrogance makes you blind to.

The rest of your strawmen arguments only merit this reply: the fact that you feel it necessary to make things up to attribute to me merely demonstrates your inability to refute what I actually wrote.

[LeonKeyh]

Those were not my points, and anyone with a 4th grade or better reading level will see that.
You're not doing your own reputation any favors by posting such blatant misrepresentations of what other people wrote. But that seems to be the norm for Healer Justice Warriors, so I'm not surprised.

Unless you can demonstrate the ability to have a rational discussion on these issues, you'll will be lucky if SE even pretends to listen to you. People who blatantly misrepresent positions they disagree with don't deserve any better than that.

I can't have a "rational" discussion with somebody who isn't being rational. I swear I feel like you're talking about yourself with misrepresenting positions (i.e. claiming the fact that people are suggesting different ways to fix the same issue means that they somehow disagree with each other and that the "right" thing to do is nothing because despite a majority of people talking about issues with healing), grouping everyone that disagrees with you into some boogieman group to disregard everything that is being said.

You want to start over and have a rational discussion? Be rational, make your point.

That's because just saying "healers need an overhaul" is non-actionable. It's useless whining that SE has no choice but to ignore.
Unless there's a consensus on what's broken, and even better how to fix it, there's nothing productive SE can derive from this thread, because if SE were to adopt some people's proposals, it would just piss the other people off even more.
And y'all aren't even trying to reach a consensus, you just keep harping on your own personal preferences.

More misrepresentation; Everyone has agreed what the issue with healers are, just because people have put together TONS of ways to fix it doesn't mean that people don't agree with what's wrong with it, it means that they could do many different things to fix it.

Healer numbers have declined; Gameplay for healers is objectively the simplistic hitting 2 every 30 seconds and 1 until someone eventually takes damage. WAR you don't even need to heal at all as several players have cleared a ton of content SOLO with WAR (or with no healer). That right there shows that healers are near useless to the party. There is objective information about why healer's position isn't where it should be. Healers should be needed in a group, the majority of people agree with that. The people are just separated on what they would prefer the fix to be. Should healers be needed in a group because the group is taking more damage and would die if the healer wasn't there? Should healers add more to DPS or at least have something more fun than "2-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1" so they at least have more fun? Should healers be able to provide support to DPS for an indirect DPS increase? These are just different ways to fix the issue that healers are largely boring and are not necessary in most instances. If you're putting together a premade, you would pick an extra DPS instead of a healer.

Unfortunately for many here, none of the FFXIV healers are the healers they want to play, but they just can't quit FFXIV healing for reasons I will defer speculating about. So they come here to complain, like each other's posts for the feels, and tear down anyone who doesn't agree with the righteous of their cause, deluding themselves that this echo chamber they've created with their screeds and their polemics is reflective of a larger reality.

But I guess that's the new internet normal, right?

Again with the irony. "I like it so I'm the right one." You're the one in the echo chamber. I play healer because I enjoy it but that doesn't mean that it doesn't have any problems. You need to disconnect those ideas from each other.

[Deceptus]

More misrepresentation; Everyone has agreed what the issue with healers are, just because people have put together TONS of ways to fix it doesn't mean that people don't agree with what's wrong with it, it means that they could do many different things to fix it.

And more importantly:

IT'S NOT OUR JOB TO COME UP WITH THE SOLUTIONS.

We don't get paid to design the game.

Our responsibility is to detect the issues we have as paying customers (and we have, time and time again). We don't have to come up with the solutions as well. Saying otherwise is just passing the buck from the designers to us.

We've done OUR part, the dev team needs to do theirs. They can either meet us in the middle somewhere, or ignore us and watch the healers continue to leave.

Which is probably, IMHO, why they're designing systems to play solo.

Put simply:
During high end content like savage/extreme, the moment to moment experience of healing doesn't require much involvement from the healer, and this is something many of us do not find as engaging as we would like.

Feedback done.

Dungeons don't need a healer at all
The first 3 stages of the normal 8 man were completed without a healer
The first stage of the savage 8 man was completed without a healer
The first two EX trials were completed without a healer.

Healers are essentially pointless in current FFXIV content. That should be the feedback they are receiving.

Except when we tried to bring that up, our question was blatantly miscontrued and we were to told to go play ultimate if we were unhappy.