What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Lauront]

*snip*

I kid. Very good post. As others have put it, EW is Broken Aesop writ large, at just about every level - it's woven into its fabric, and features even more egregiously than it did in SHB, where it featured to a subtler degree and mainly in the post-MSQ/side content stuff.

Every day my mind goes wild with ideas for what they could've done instead. An eldrich horror of mysterious origin. Or a sentient race of aliens from far beyond who had come to the conclusion that Etheirys/the universe must end for some higher purpose, a higher purpose that may just make perfect sense when we finally learn what it is. ANYTHING ELSE BUT A SAD BIRD GIRL AND A GUY WHO'S DEPRESSED BECAUSE A DOG DIED.

Exactly. It was such sheer disappointment.

1. establish branching timelines are perfectly possible – although technically I suppose nobody in-universe knows that the 8th calamity timeline is still thriving in spite of the time meddling and hasn't just gone poof.

And to add to this, it can at least be inferred, because G'raha posits this as a possibility to explain his persistence. This, by the way, is exactly why I think the Ascians/ancients did not resort to time travel - Ironworks accepted it was fraught with risk, including the possibility that the timeline might be erased (and I'd add to this, that because of the unpredictability of altering time, unforeseen consequences in the AU.) They essentially took a massive gamble that just so happened to end well. Although the time loop is in place, Venat admits she has little knowledge of how it will play out and states she'll take nothing for granted - this could be taken to mean she actively worked to make sure things ended that way. That is, of course, a choice. Even if it is to the benefit of the sundered, it is a betrayal of her people, IMO.

[Theodric]

I suppose it remains to be seen how they respond to the reception to Endwalker. That they felt obligated to take the unprecedented step of creating a 'clarification' Live Letter to address the story suggests to me that there is a lot of mixed reactions across the board. It's hard to see on a surface level due to how much gatekeeping the community itself likes to partake in, though the cracks are beginning to show across the board in a way that cannot be stifled as easily as in the past.

I do hope that they manage to turn things around and create something that satisfies a broader audience. The one sided fanservice and consequences only existing for the antagonists is wearing pretty thin. I'm the type to enjoy darker stories, though only when there's consistency. Introducing characters without plot armour who are sympathetic and forced to do bad things in order to survive only to be blamed for not rolling over and dying is just...childish. It's also far removed from some of the commentary put out there in interviews about 'no good, no evil' and 'it's all a matter of perspective'.

[YukikoKurosawa]

Honestly the Final Days as never going to be anything more than a wet fart because the writers are painfully averse to consequence. A doomsday level event with a writing team that refuses to kill off anyone besides side nps nobody cares about is never going to have the weight it needs. When characters die just come back almost every time (even when they should logically be dead), there is zero tension to any drama revolving around death.

Can you imagine the current writing team writing The Lion King? At the climax of the film it's revealed Mufasa is actually alive, turns out he survived his fall (without any explanation, he just got better) and has been in hiding in a cave for the 3 or however many years that followed and arrives to save the day. Also Scar somehow survives too and is teased in a capeshit-tier after-credits scene as coming back for the sequel, with the help of a new villain from out of nowhere.

You may think this sounds outlandish but I fully believe this is how they would've handled that movie were they in charge of the script. Unironically.

At the end of the day if you want to tell a story like they were trying to tell in EW you need to commit to consequence and to make me care you need someone that actually mattters to me to suffer consequences (generally that being death). But when are you are so averse to this and just want to revert to the status quo every time than this is doomed to fall flat. Especially when you are comitted to inserting humor at innappropriate times in such a way that kills tension. We go from killing Zodiark and realizing we just caused a doomsday-tier event to happen to only a few minutes later hanging out with cute bunnies who outright crack jokes about our impending doom.

I think the writers would be more accustomed to writing light-hearted slice-of-life stories if I'm being completely honest. Serious, dark stories are clearly not for them and they should stop trying since they just refuse to commit to them.

[Raoabolic]

We were literally there for 10 minutes on the moon and then immediately killed him and he’s hardly even mentioned again. He isn’t even praised for being what saved the world!

Correction, Zenos weakened him by kicking the crystals in and Fandanny Phantom forced Zodark to not fight at his full strength AND THEN we tooled around the moon for 10 minutes and killed a weakened, lethargic, Zodark.

[Xirean]

At the end of the day if you want to tell a story like they were trying to tell in EW you need to commit to consequence and to make me care you need someone that actually mattters to me to suffer consequences (generally that being death). But when are you are so averse to this and just want to revert to the status quo every time than this is doomed to fall flat.

This brings up an interesting question. I know people have very wide ranges of opinions on the various characters we adventure with, but I'm curious which character this criteria could qualify for? For me that's Estinien, but for others they may be happy to see him leave.

[Lauront]

This song will play for the 10000th time

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0YM...PAWRa&index=27

(I like this song actually but they really overuse it to the point I can almost consistently predict when it's going to be played. Really need to make more sad OSTs honestly.)

It's gotten to that point where you just know what music will play next and whether there will be a fist clench or pump.

I have heard the "keening beneath the earth" line was a translation error exclusive to the english version, but I haven't seen any proof of this.

Also yes, I think ShB ending with Zodiark's death, then the next expansion being the fallout would've been much better than him being a lvl 83 trial boss in EW, and have the entire expansion revolve around said fallout leading up to the source of the Final Days. But who knows why we got what we got in the end. I just know for a fact that they were not trying their best with EW, it was a step down in all respects and held up by fanservice and "cool" moments rather than a good. compelling plot.

I don't believe it was. The Watcher re-affirms it on the moon, and it also exists in the FR version:





Now it may not exist in the JP version but I am very sceptical that it doesn't.

I didn't think the 'Sound' was going to be addressed in 6.0 and in hindsight I don't think it should have been either. It could've been the 'big bad' of the next arc if they'd written Zodiark's demise to slowly unravel the 'laws of nature' whereby we gradually start to see the Final Days begin to creep up around the world with increasing intensity across expansions. One of other complaints about EW is the Final Days, an extinction level event for the Ancients, is arguably no worse than any other calamity for modern mankind.

Additionally, rather than a time loop paradox, the WoL could have started having dreams or Echo flashbacks to the Final Days. I'd argue they're overdue as those less rejoined than the WoL have visions/memories of their past lives. We could've been trained in how to hone our Echo by any one of the unsundered. Elidibus should've procured from the CT to aid us with Zodiark and offer a glimpse into what happened from his POV. We were denied seeing everything from Zodiark's summoning, to Elidibus' mediation, to the sundering.

There's so much more that could have been done. Unfortunately, I think the issue is Yoshi-P was bored of this story (if he ever liked it at all) and wanted to move on to something else. I already had that feeling before the interview where he mentioned needing to be interested in what he was doing. It feels like Ancient and lore fans got the shaft because he just wasn't into it. I also wonder how much of a factor that was in Ishikawa stepping down as MSQ writer. I'd find it difficult to believe EW is what she intended.

I agree with all this, including the true origin of the Sound being the focal point for the next arc. Wasted opportunity.

The real sad part is that the cinematic trailer they showed off for EW made it seem like we would be dealing with the voidsent and eldritch horrors. The tower of Zot actually re-enforced that feeling with some of the "human" enemies after the first boss. After the Raz at hand situation though, they kind of dropped that part off. That, combined with the elpis made it feel like a huge bait and switch imo. Perhaps 7.0 will pay off considering the way the story is going but after the string of plotholes EW left, I really am feeling lukewarm to the MSQ and even some of the side story content (The role quest finale felt really flat compared to the ShB role quest finale. If anything, I feel like the Garliens really are getting a raw deal all around but that's for another discussion).

Even as someone who enjoys the aesthetics of the Void, I am not particularly excited by what they've cooked up so far, and I think they burnt through too much of their plot in too little time, too shallowly. I was rather shocked (though probably shouldn't've been) when I saw how swiftly and poorly they resolved the Garlean plot. It's just not a very satisfactory resolution to me.

Not sure how he would have been cliche or boring as the final boss considering he’s been built up for 10+ years. Also an amazing fight? I’m scared to think what you think is a lackluster fight considering this is a primal capable of bending the laws of creation and reality yet his signature ability is….moving the arena WHOAAAAAA. Vital part of the story? We were literally there for 10 minutes on the moon and then immediately killed him and he’s hardly even mentioned again. He isn’t even praised for being what saved the world!

As far as your twelve theory goes….it’s gonna be a bit hard for her followers to be the Twelve when we were told she consumed their souls lmao. They’re gone.

The devs didn’t confirm anything. They said what venat thought is probably what would happen, yes probably. Not “yes that’s going to happen,” because you can’t make assumptions on something 1000+ years in the future.

It's even more tenuous than that. They said it's their vision of what would probably happen if the ancients didn't change - in turn, they said that it was her belief that they wouldn't change. This is all very loosy goosy stuff.

[Xirean]

Is it possible that the intention is that the sound was The Endsinger? I know it comes from within the planet, but magic? idk just a thought.

[YukikoKurosawa]

One thing I think nobody really mentions that deserves criticism is the amount of "As you already know...." lines they use in EW. A trope that is a literal meme (and a very old one at that) for how stupid it is (if we already know than why are you telling us is the entire point basically, its an extremely lazy way of getting information across to the audience even when the characters in-story recieving this information should already know it) , they unironically use it multiple times over in this expansion. And what's baffling is they never did it before to my recollection. The first time I thought "ok you didn't actually just use this trope unironically" than they just.....kept doing it. To the point of being comical.

[YukikoKurosawa]

It's gotten to that point where you just know what music will play next and whether there will be a fist clench or pump.

Everytime Alphi clenches his fist all I can think of is the Arthur fist meme.

[Theodric]

Everytime Alphi clenches his fist all I can think of is the Arthur fist meme.

I can't even begin to describe how much I loathe the fist clenching. It's funny, too, because if you see an antagonist make the same gesture they'll be told that no matter how sympathetic their plight is they just need to 'move on'. Whereas the slightest inconvenience for the protagonists is treated as something that needs to be addressed as quickly as possible.