What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[KageTokage]

snip

You may want to look a bit deeper then the first post because the discussion has evolved a lot since then...as most topics that are 400+ pages long tend to. What started off as a topic people were initially dismissing as bait from the relative shallowness of the initial post gradually drew in others who had more valid and better explained issues with the storytelling.

Though I'll still go into specifics with the last bit because one of the core problems people have with Venat throughout this very long (And admittedly at times repetitive) discussion is that there's no indication she told the Convocation anything about the Final Days whatsoever. To them, she was just a deviant who opposed the revival of those sacrificed to Zodiark for reasons they dismissed as simple fear when history could've played out very differently if they had known the truth before calamity struck.

It was also made pretty clear that Etheriys was never a "perfect" world begin with, nor was there any indication the Ancients were trying to completely eliminate strife in the manner the people of Plenty seem to have succeeded at doing (Though judging from the barren broken husk of their star below it came at a terrible cost). Creation magic in itself was a catalyst for that, with unruly creations routinely needing to be either put down or contained in Pandemonium. Even Elidibus admits that their people often stood divided on matters, but it seldom lasted for long until the matter of Zodiark's sacrifices came into play.

[Theodric]

Also one of the big criticisms for the ancients is creation magic when used with zodiark...., venat gave creation magicks to the rabbits....

Who unflinchigly serve humans

Yeah, it's odd and yet another case of 'it's okay when we do it' at play. Smileton is also the attempt by the Lopporits to create a paradise for the people of Etheirys which suggests that Venat never warned them about her fears for the future. Which suggests to me that her motives were changed significantly during the rewrite(s) and that is why so little consistency is to be found.

[YukikoKurosawa]

At the end of the day Hermes/Meteion is just a step down from Emet Selch/Elidibus in terms of villain. They're just not as compelling it's not even a question. One has a good, logical reason for their actions which still does not absolve them but makes them sympathetic and entirely understandable, the other is motivated by what boils down to nihilism. They're just not as interesting or compelling as the Emet and I can't imagine how they thought Hermes/Meteion was going to be a step up. Already EW started off with shaky grounds with Fanny Danny's intro at the end of 5.3 being cartoonishly evil. While he was fleshed out into something better, it's still not as compelling or understandable as the ascians.

Worse still basically all we get as rationalization for Hermes's angst is a soulless dog being put down(soulless yes, all creatures being tested in Elpis are literally soulesss until they are approved and granted souls by the Star). And while that's really simplifying his motives that's really all we're SHOWN of why he became a villain. That was our one and only moment given as rationalization, it even repeatedly flashes back to the dead dog.

It's almost as bad as Sylvanas being revealed to have served the Jailer because she was sad a fucking lava eel vored it's wife and was sent to a different afterlife. No I'm not making that up or in any way being hyperbolic that's what the latest WoW novel revealed.

This is all made orders of magnitude worse by the fact that it is so heavily teased to be something far, far far more interseting being the big bad responsible for the Final Days, built up from the end of ShB all the way to THAT scene with Meteion. Until they decided to subvert our expectations in the most dissapointing way I think they could've done it. They knew they were teasing something far more interesting and deliberatly went "lol no" and bait and switched. They could not have possibly thought what they ended up going with was more compelling than almost literally anything else. That is probably the most infuriating part of all of this.

Every day my mind goes wild with ideas for what they could've done instead. An eldrich horror of mysterious origin. Or a sentient race of aliens from far beyond who had come to the conclusion that Etheirys/the universe must end for some higher purpose, a higher purpose that may just make perfect sense when we finally learn what it is. ANYTHING ELSE BUT A SAD BIRD GIRL AND A GUY WHO'S DEPRESSED BECAUSE A DOG DIED.

[Xirean]

Random thought. Meteion coming from Etheirys allows us to understand what she is. She is trying to bring about the end of our world. But it's stated that she was doing this to others as well. What's worse? The end of our world being a pet project 12k years ago, or some other civilization finding out that the end of their world is some pet project of a completely different planet? Imagine being a different civilization and getting to Ultima Thule and seeing a little bird child is what's killing you.

[YukikoKurosawa]

Emet Selch: "My entire world was brought to the brink of destruction and my people wiped out by some unseen force and I am trying to bring back my world and all those I lost but it will be at the expense of your world and everyone you love."

Hermes/Amon: "A dog died, people are mean, and this makes me sad so everyone should die"

(yes I know this is hyperbole)

[Raoabolic]

Random thought. Meteion coming from Etheirys allows us to understand what she is. She is trying to bring about the end of our world. But it's stated that she was doing this to others as well. What's worse? The end of our world being a pet project 12k years ago, or some other civilization finding out that the end of their world is some pet project of a completely different planet? Imagine being a different civilization and getting to Ultima Thule and seeing a little bird child is what's killing you.

*Voidsent seething intensifies*

Though considering the stinger scene at the end of the 6.1 patch I would not be shocked if the story's new villain is a sundered something or another that is out for revenge for said sundering and at the end of the day the scions waggle their finger and go "naughty, naughty, this is our universe now. :^)" before killing them. Sad music will be playing though.

[YukikoKurosawa]

Sad music will be playing though.

This song will play for the 10000th time

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0YM...PAWRa&index=27

(I like this song actually but they really overuse it to the point I can almost consistently predict when it's going to be played. Really need to make more sad OSTs honestly.)

[Rulakir]

I didn't think the 'Sound' was going to be addressed in 6.0 and in hindsight I don't think it should have been either. It could've been the 'big bad' of the next arc if they'd written Zodiark's demise to slowly unravel the 'laws of nature' whereby we gradually start to see the Final Days begin to creep up around the world with increasing intensity across expansions. One of other complaints about EW is the Final Days, an extinction level event for the Ancients, is arguably no worse than any other calamity for modern mankind.

Additionally, rather than a time loop paradox, the WoL could have started having dreams or Echo flashbacks to the Final Days. I'd argue they're overdue as those less rejoined than the WoL have visions/memories of their past lives. We could've been trained in how to hone our Echo by any one of the unsundered. Elidibus should've procured from the CT to aid us with Zodiark and offer a glimpse into what happened from his POV. We were denied seeing everything from Zodiark's summoning, to Elidibus' mediation, to the sundering.

There's so much more that could have been done. Unfortunately, I think the issue is Yoshi-P was bored of this story (if he ever liked it at all) and wanted to move on to something else. I already had that feeling before the interview where he mentioned needing to be interested in what he was doing. It feels like Ancient and lore fans got the shaft because he just wasn't into it. I also wonder how much of a factor that was in Ishikawa stepping down as MSQ writer. I'd find it difficult to believe EW is what she intended.

[YukikoKurosawa]

I have heard the "keening beneath the earth" line was a translation error exclusive to the english version, but I haven't seen any proof of this.

Also yes, I think ShB ending with Zodiark's death, then the next expansion being the fallout would've been much better than him being a lvl 83 trial boss in EW, and have the entire expansion revolve around said fallout leading up to the source of the Final Days. But who knows why we got what we got in the end. I just know for a fact that they were not trying their best with EW, it was a step down in all respects and held up by fanservice and "cool" moments rather than a good. compelling plot.

[Raoabolic]

I have heard the "keening beneath the earth" line was a translation error exclusive to the english version, but I haven't seen any proof of this.

Also yes, I think ShB ending with Zodiark's death, then the next expansion being the fallout would've been much better than him being a lvl 83 trial boss in EW, and have the entire expansion revolve around said fallout leading up to the source of the Final Days. But who knows why we got what we got in the end. I just know for a fact that they were not trying their best with EW, it was a step down in all respects and held up by fanservice and "cool" moments rather than a good. compelling plot.

The real sad part is that the cinematic trailer they showed off for EW made it seem like we would be dealing with the voidsent and eldritch horrors. The tower of Zot actually re-enforced that feeling with some of the "human" enemies after the first boss. After the Raz at hand situation though, they kind of dropped that part off. That, combined with the elpis made it feel like a huge bait and switch imo. Perhaps 7.0 will pay off considering the way the story is going but after the string of plotholes EW left, I really am feeling lukewarm to the MSQ and even some of the side story content (The role quest finale felt really flat compared to the ShB role quest finale. If anything, I feel like the Garliens really are getting a raw deal all around but that's for another discussion).