Dark Knight Megathread

[Shurrikhan]

If you can suggest a maintenance combo setup that's more interesting than Eye/Goring and their many variants, then by all means. Alternatively, if you come up with a second combo that isn't resource-gated, then I'm all ears.

I agree with you that we should aim for unique means of providing a given mechanic, so long as that actually produces a unique feel to gameplay. (Granted, not all technically unique mechanics do ultimately provide gameplay loops that feel unique, and some shared mechanics can nonetheless create different gameplay loops just due to their distinct contexts.)

But how tightly should we read this? If we're including even theoretical variants, then you've precluded any means of pacing a combo based on durations or resources. That may literally include every possibility.

Now if you simply want to avoid anything like our existing examples, I still have to ask... why preclude them so preemptively? We tried some other ideas. Some of them were probably bad, but that's something we can check after contextualizing them. We still learn from what we saw needed improvement and in what likely ways. The discussion rarely settles so quickly on a "good enough" long-term (i.e., save as a tentative step or context). I'm still ultimately gonna be anal about anything that smells of homogeneity, and I doubt I'm alone in that. But when we're discussing a particular prospect, we can at least lay those possible implementations out and imagine them through so we have steppingstones for our continued discussion... instead of just insisting someone leap the poorly-defined gap singlehandedly.

Not really. There are quite a few people besides myself who have already pointed out the risks of a rework, earlier in this thread.

I know. I myself have warned about the risks of reworks. Many, many times.

But there's a difference between shutting down all attempts to progressively hammer out our preferences --precluding that discussion alternatively through, "your ideas are meritless and dangerous without a completed alternative" and "concretely exemplified ideas are intrusive plugs"-- and simply noting the implications of such and such a change or attempting to tie the smaller ideas back to the consensus of larger goals if/when those examples overly fixate discussion. There's a difference between asking, "Okay, but what gameplay loop do you want to result from that?" and requiring the strictest of conditions (such as precluding every existing mechanical means of softly pacing a combo's usage) for an idea to even be thought through collectively.

The reason why there isn't the same support for DM or TBN being buffed is because most people can see significant upsides to having those abilities the way they are, and they're more likely to be nerfed in the process of reworking them rather than buffed, as you can see in the thread that I linked.

And I point out those upsides whenever anyone brings up their potential adjustments. They have certain affordances I want to keep. In my case, that's a bit more to do with gameplay that capacity, but still.

As you've said, most people see those upsides already. And if the thread loses sight of those upsides, we can keep reminding people of them. We can even do all that... without calling out others for even just collectively/publicly thinking through whatever X change might produce.

I especially dislike the suggestion that TBN have its MP cost and the Dark Arts mechanic removed and be moved to 25s, as that's a major nerf if you know how to use the ability properly.

Same. I've already been accused of "dying on that hill," and will continue to do so. While I could see Dark Mind potentially taking on a new, more synergetic function, I think TBN is easily the most interesting mitigation ability XIV has, and am not willing to lose its affordances.

By synergetic, I here refer to, say, turning incoming damage instead into a damage over time effect in a context where Edge is augmented by... a Sineater trait to be able to reduce the remaining DoT to be taken by some portion of its damage dealt. Yes, that's spitball, but the idea is that you'd have something that provides more, at-least-somewhat freely placeable windows by which to get further, interesting value out of flexible oGCD attacks. Naturally, I would then wish to link in Living Dead similarly.

The discussion around sustain has more to do with role philosophy than job design.

Yes, but that doesn't exclude it from being a vector of available job identity. Nor does "healers exist" mean that we should ignore parity in healing+mitigation. That's especially the case if a job has no compensatory strength to, say, make up for the lost healer rDPS. Note that at present, GNB can outdamage, outmitigate, and outheal DRK.

I don't see 'self-sustain' as mandatory on tanks because content is designed around having 1-2 healers present. If they decide to move towards an ARPG design, get rid of healers, and give everyone a stack of healing pots and raises then that's a different story.

This seems a reduction to the absurd.

And who has outright claimed that self-healing, specifically, is "mandatory"?

Now, sustain is a factor in tank balance, and self-healing --alongside mitigation, be that based on incoming damage or only on the tank's own stats-- is a factor in sustain. And since mitigation is the form that has greater and more unique affordances, it's generally easier to fix an imbalance in primarily just in self-healing through... self-healing. We can trade some of that sustain between mitigation and healing, or eventually trade some of that sustain towards damage if later contexts allowed for that, but right now DRK has neither a compensatory lead in mitigation nor damage.

Granted, if you've got warning bells ringing on the basis that jobs don't need to perform similarly in each category, only on the whole, I understand; I'm right there with you. But asking for rough parity is not asking for homogeneity. And suggesting that DRK get a bit more self-healing is just being pragmatic. It's not even of the sort of pragmatism that might sacrifice identity (unless you outright count being slightly underpowered as... an identity). By all means, keep an eye on it lest it suddenly, somehow mutate and come out swinging an axe, but DRK can have some self-sustain without being excessive or homogeneous.

That self-sustain is not a huge deal, but there's no risk here of DRK becoming more homogeneous just from pulling a thousand or so extra cure potency per minute. It could even be leveraged rather uniquely.

There are some things that are common to every iteration of DRK that we've seen so far, though, like a relatively higher oGCD count and layered resource management system currently on the job. So there are some things about the job that you can't change, because they're been a part of the job's identity across several reworks.

Well, yeah. That's not been contested...

Did I just miss someone trying to get rid of either of those aspects? Are... are we talking about Shadowbringers/Endwalker Darkside here? Darkside being considered a wasted gauge aside, I've mostly been seeing people advocating for more of that, not less... I get that some people could probably make clearer in a given isolated post that what they find insufficient (a la Darkside) ought to be replaced, not merely removed, but this seems to be in agreement with everyone else anyways?

If you have a problem with DRK's core gameplay loop, by all means, discuss it.

My problem with the core gameplay loop, whether it fits your constraints or not, is that I want more -- more to do, and to watch out for, over which I would have actual control (rather than it being set by timers or equivalents that are inflexible in practice) and some means of paying off gambles and/or capitalizing on events.

That probably, but not necessarily, means flexible mini-burst windows, some of them reactive (be that to offensive procs, defensive events, or ideally both), and maybe some means of controlling pacing. That may mean having some damn good reasons to want to hit a particular combo step at a precise time, complete with the flexibility to let me make that happen.

When I have that hammered out enough for what it's my head to make sense to others, I will post it. It will take some time though, because my core problem with the kit is how little agency, TBN aside, it offers me between bursts; that requires addition, not just critique.

I can tell that you don't have a point to make whenever you fall back into excessive verbiage, as is your old habit. That second last paragraph would put Urianger to shame.

This is like the third time you've used that "burn". I don't know why you've been so fixated the past five years over how I type, but the last time you went full ad hominin at people across a DRK thread, it got shut down, so please don't do that again.

[Shurrikhan]

Guys you're getting off track, it is no use criticizing others opinions in such a way. You have a fundamental disagreement (one likes the current design, the others don't) just leave it at that.

Only ever allowing two contrary positions to be "left at that" essentially just denies the less popular notion its ability to shape the discourse (and to a degree, therefore, the outcome). That's not as democratic an idea as it might first seem.

[baklava151]

MP starts at max, so between Blood Weapon and Delirium's MP gain you won't even use the combo for the first few minutes of the fight. And when you do, it'll just be a worse implementation of Storm's Eye.

I mentioned earlier they would have to change some numbers around to make it work, otherwise yeah I agree if they just dropped it in at level 30 when you first get Flood of Shadow without any other changes, it'd suck. I don't know what those adjustments would look like exactly (although separately I want Delirium to change to literally anything but an IR clone) but I imagine there's a sweet spot between having to do an MP combo after every Souleater combo and doing it every once in a blue moon. If the devs wanted to get really spicy, they could pop a Darkside cost on Blood abilities and make it less static.

[Dracosavarian]

This is like the third time you've used that "burn". I don't know why you've been so fixated the past five years over how I type, but the last time you went full ad hominin at people across a DRK thread, it got shut down, so please don't do that again.

I don’t think they are intentionally trying to “ Burn “ you Shurrikhan. Rather, the phrase comes to mind “ Less is MORE. “

I am far more verbose than you are, but one thing I have learned in life, working in both Healthcare and IT and supporting both, is the core of what that phrase means. When on meetings for IT issues, I would at times have people telling me, in the midst of a long and technical explanation as to why a program or critical server failed that lead to a sev, tell me “ Get to the point. “

What others are trying to say is what I have spoken of earlier in some discussions with you. Your counter arguments go on for so long, point by point, that they in turn end up muddying your argument. And for a lot of people, they lose focus on what the point you are making is, due to this.

It’s one of the reasons why I make a concerted effort on my own end to truncate my phrasing to get my point across as concisely as possible. Because I myself all too often had this issue far earlier in my own life.

[Lyth]

...

You could stick a maintenance combo on DRK, similar to PLD/WAR/MNK/DRG/NIN/SAM, but they're usually placed on the job in question to reign in its damage and resource-generation (our average self-sustain would be reduced as well, in DRK's case). I think that if you're going to add a new combo to the job, and at a high level, then it should be something that players enjoy using, rather than prefer to avoid using. That's why I think setting up an 'enhanced' combo is a better choice overall. I feel good when I can use a Soul Reaver combo, both in aesthetic and damage dealt. I do not feel good using Storm's Eye. Of course, if you can come up with a 'second combo' concept that doesn't fall into the categories that we've discussed, it would be worth discussing that now.

If you have specific improvements that you want to discuss, great. But people tend to latch on to catchphrases and stop thinking about what they really mean. Everyone becomes obsessed about 'when are we getting our rework' because they have come to associate the term with buffs and changes. But it doesn't always work out that way, as we've seen. I think now's the time to push the big red rework button from our minds and think in a more focused way about how DRK's gameplay can be improved from where we are now. All I'm asking is that people think critically for themselves, rather than repeating the 'rework' phrase because they've heard it's a popular thing to say.

The self-healing discussion is an odd one. I personally feel that tanks in general have way too much self-healing, this expansion. You can fight for more self-sustain on principle, but I don't think that it actually matters that DRK is at a disadvantage in this category. For example, if you gave me a choice between more self-sustain vs. replacing Dark Missionary with something on par with Shake, I'd pick the latter in a heartbeat. I also think it's better for DRK to not be the FoTM (as long as we're in striking distance of that spot), for a couple of reasons. First, it's more fun outskilling someone playing the 'best tank' by virtue of having better uptime. Second, I never enjoyed seeing what the WAR and PLD communities became like when they were FoTM (or perhaps the better term is flavor of the expansion). Third, look at BLM - they're perpetually second to third place, and they're happy there. I think if there's a tight enough balance, and they change up the relative strengths up frequently such that nobody stays on the top for too long, then it's fine. The people campaigning for the FoTM are the ones that mess up most jobs anyways.

Either way, I'm not opposed to more self-sustain, but there are probably other things that I would prioritize over this.

I actually like procs a fair bit (and enjoyed seeing them on DRK in Heavensward), but some people don't fare as well with them. The decision-making around them tends to be fairly simple, even on dps jobs that do have them still (i.e. RDM). I think that if what you're looking for is skill expression, what this game is really missing is skillshots. Oddly, the closest thing that we've ever had to this on DRK was the old Salted Earth. RPR's Ingress/Egress is pretty fantastic in this regard, because you're eyeballing a distance and trajectory based on the direction you're facing, while planning a return point after the mechanic resolves. But I think that opportunities for skill expression are also things that you can brainstorm when coming up with new abilities for next expansion.

As for the statement about verbiage, it is what it is. Your posts are at their best when just make your points clearly. I only remind you when I find myself getting tired trying to decipher your point.

I mentioned earlier they would have to change some numbers around to make it work, otherwise yeah I agree if they just dropped it in at level 30 when you first get Flood of Shadow without any other changes, it'd suck. I don't know what those adjustments would look like exactly (although separately I want Delirium to change to literally anything but an IR clone) but I imagine there's a sweet spot between having to do an MP combo after every Souleater combo and doing it every once in a blue moon. If the devs wanted to get really spicy, they could pop a Darkside cost on Blood abilities and make it less static.

I don't mind Delirium too much now, especially since we're only down to three stacks. I wish that it gave a GCD speedboost in honor of the old Blood Weapon. I wouldn't mind if it brought in some new animations. But I probably would find a way to upgrade Living Shadow first before doing anything with Delirium.

[baklava151]

I don't mind Delirium too much now, especially since we're only down to three stacks. I wish that it gave a GCD speedboost in honor of the old Blood Weapon. I wouldn't mind if it brought in some new animations. But I probably would find a way to upgrade Living Shadow first before doing anything with Delirium.

I'll only tolerate Living Shadow's existence if this is the level 100 capstone ability

[baklava151]

I don't mind Delirium too much now, especially since we're only down to three stacks. I wish that it gave a GCD speedboost in honor of the old Blood Weapon.

I remember you making a post a while back about having either Darkside or Delirium, can't remember which, boost your GCD speed which I thought could be a cool idea and serve as a good way to differentiate DRK from the other tanks, using speed rather than hard hits to do damage.

[Dracosavarian]

I'll only tolerate Living Shadow's existence if this is the level 100 capstone ability

I laughed way too hard at this. Thanks for brightening the day some.

[Runeslayer]

I remember you making a post a while back about having either Darkside or Delirium, can't remember which, boost your GCD speed which I thought could be a cool idea and serve as a good way to differentiate DRK from the other tanks, using speed rather than hard hits to do damage.

In my head, the idea that 'dark knight ramps up their attack speed over time, like they fight harder and faster the longer they fight' seems a really neat concept if executed properly.

Perhaps they could lean into that as a rotation that caps out with some kind of finisher? Building levels of speed before needing to finish it off and reset or 'rest', then ramping up again.

[Eorzean_username]

In my head, the idea that 'dark knight ramps up their attack speed over time, like they fight harder and faster the longer they fight' seems a really neat concept if executed properly.

Perhaps they could lean into that as a rotation that caps out with some kind of finisher? Building levels of speed before needing to finish it off and reset or 'rest', then ramping up again.

This is idea sounds fun, and would actually do something different as a system vs. FFXIV's recent tendency to recycle the same basic concepts again and again with the older Jobs.

However, I can foresee complaints forming already:

a) If your DPS gain comes from lowered GCD time, then just like stacking Skill Speed now, the DPS gains have a "sawblade" pattern where you either gain an extra GCD in a phase, or you don't. This could lead to a sense of ineffectiveness, since it's "easier" to squeeze in binary gains like eg, "Carve and Spit", where it either hits or it doesn't, than "gambling" on whether you actually get something extra out of it. Even for Machinist Hypercharge, what you're really gaining is mostly the extra Gauss/Ricochet spam and Wildfire compilation.

b) Due to the need to dump both MP-based and traditional-cooldown OGCDs, Dark Knight is already a hectic and punishing mess for any connections that can't comfortably double-weave. Overlapping its current burst phase with Machinist/Reaper-style "rapid fire" GCDs would further narrow the band of players that can execute the burst comfortably without "external tools™".

c) Potentially very feast/famine in terms of buff coordination. If you misalign from external buffs, then your own faster speed potentially becomes a lot less valuable, similar to how Skill Speed gains now can either be high or much more middling depending on where your extra GCDs land (the longstanding "Get X and then stop" Skill Speed approach, where "stop" is when you can squeeze an extra GCD inside a buff window). Of course, this issue affects all rotations and attacks to some degree (doing something inside +N% damage is better than doing it outside that bonus), but it might feel more pronounced if your "only" bonus is doing things faster, rather than harder, bigger, or flashier.

I personally think that the idea of a "frenzying" Job sounds fun and would actually give Dark Knight some kind of combat identity, but I also notice that "do things faster" rotations tend to get peeled away or marginalized in games like FFXIV... for example, Greased Lightning being converted to a Trait, or "Slice and Dice" being deleted in WOW.

...Or, well, Blood Weapon's previous increased attack speed actually being removed in Shadowbringers.

And to be clear, all of these issues can either be argued against, or adjusted for. I'm just trying to bring up stuff that pops to my mind as potential problems.

For example, it would probably work fine if you imagine an FFXIV where:

• Encounters don't try to cleanly fit around 60s cycles
• 2-minute party buff stacking has been deleted
• Dark Knight's weaving burden during burst has been scaled back considerably

In such a case, an "ebb and flow" cycle ramping between high and low speed would probably have room to feel both natural and effective.