Dark Knight Megathread

[Runeslayer]

Yeah, I don't honestly expect it to work in the current landscape of the game...quite frankly I'm really sick of buff alignments being a major deterrent/ limiting factor in how they design jobs. I understand they can't just outright sledgehammer delete them, but there's gotta be something better out there. If the simplification design philosophy keeps going the way it is, I'll probably end up jaded enough to advocate for full scorched earth.

But that's speculative at best, when really the fine print of it should be what we're looking at. That is, unless you're super against anything about the core rotation changing I see a lot of people really into some of these suggestions at face value, but know they can't fully go into supporting them because xyz reasons. Balance, synergy, redundancy, etc.

What this tells me is there is a demand for 'something to work towards' instead of hitting buttons in a certain way when they come off cooldown. You guys ever play monster hunter? Particularly the more recent titles? My mind turns to the weapon systems in those games.

[Eorzean_username]

I see a lot of people really into some of these suggestions at face value, but know they can't fully go into supporting them because xyz reasons. Balance, synergy, redundancy, etc.

Yeah, I'll be honest, it's exhausting.

Every cool idea that just "sounds fun" has to go through the wilting reality process of "Wait, how will this become tedious and disappointing in the 60s/120s Savage timing cycle?"

It's rough because that weird clockwork sense of precision is part of what gives FFXIV combat its flavor and satisfaction, but at the same time, it also feels like a padlock around the neck of combat design.

[Runeslayer]

Yeah that's exactly my feelings on the matter.
There's a consistent concept in my head that's rather vague, but it involves bending DRKs current identity to be more 'risk reward' focused.
What is the 'risk' and what is the 'reward'? I have no solid answer for this, but to me the idea of DRK being the tank that wagers tangible risks with tangible consequences on failure while the reward is satisfying for being competent is very appealing.

I draw the line at something like how darkside is currently, there is almost no way you can fuck up darkside and accidently run out of it if you're even okay at the job. I don't mean risks like that, more in the style of redmage in that if you build too much of one mana, the other is harder to build. The kind of risk where realistic mistakes lead to fair but recoverable consequence, and is always a present factor.

Right now as tanks, the idea that tanks risk ANYTHING is such a scary concept that some people shun it from the gate-- especially true when it comes to dark knight, who traditionally was a risk-reward class.

[Shurrikhan]

In my head, the idea that 'dark knight ramps up their attack speed over time, like they fight harder and faster the longer they fight' seems a really neat concept if executed properly.

Perhaps they could lean into that as a rotation that caps out with some kind of finisher? Building levels of speed before needing to finish it off and reset or 'rest', then ramping up again.

I've proposed something very similar before, with manually entered Darkside phases ramping up from each Edge use to increase both, positively, Attack Speed and Damage, and negatively, Darkside's drain rate, such that you want to time your phases to cap out on that buff with less than a second left on the timer (just enough time for a final nuke oGCD like CnS).

The problem, of course, as Eorzea has mentioned, is the 'tyranny of raid timers', so to speak. Without something compensatory, of our own making, that pacing isn't something we control so we are controlled by it -- and thereby forced to engage with at optimized timings:

Enter Darkside when timer has at least X seconds stored (which, in perfect uptime at ideal SkS, will be T-A seconds); first Edge at T-B seconds; second Edge at T-C seconds; third Edge at... etc., etc.

I guess my main question (for anyone/everyone), then, is what might we do that could create situations or events that could more worthwhile anchors for our bankable skills and resources than are raid CDs?

Naturally, that would require that their advantages are more potent than a certain degree of raid buffs.

That has a couple new problems, of course, if DRK's bankable/flexible skills and resources don't exceed what they can use for their own anchors/windows outside of CD alignments: When raid buffs are too few or weak, those raid buff windows become irrelevant and the job loses that gameplay; and, when raid buffs are too many or powerful, DRK's own anchors may lose relevance and therefore cost DRK that play. So, we'd probably ultimately need to give DRK a bit more to work with there (which is nebulous in that there are so many ways to go about that, including even just expanding particular oGCD's cooldowns, like Edge/Flood's, as not to be all dumped into a single of DRK's own new windows).

:: To be clear, though, I'm all for the ramping, pace-varying, "risk-reward focused" DRK. That's what I wanted most from DRK when it came out, and I've only come to want it more over time.

[Kalaam]

The standardization of raid buff windows and burst rotations really put job design in a corner. We could have a multiple of 120s a core rotation with one or two slower ones that could be 1 minute or another at 40 seconds to give a feel of irregularity that would reset by itself around 2 minutes.

[Lyth]

That type of system reminds me of how Wrath/Defiance stacks used to work, with your Crit rate ramping up at higher stacks. I don't think that it was ever beneficial to sit on your stacks for the passive, though.

Haste can be even more tricky because it also determines what weaves you can get away with without clipping. So if your GCD length keeps changing with your level of 'Darkside', then you'd have to know individual Darkside breakpoints at which you can double weave based on your own gear stats and latency. The last time we had a discussion about speed buffs (i.e. even Darkside being an 'always on' speed buff, there was some objection to that. I think it could be fun if it was tied in to a burst window (i.e. like original Blood Weapon), even if only for aesthetics.

[Shurrikhan]

That type of system reminds me of how Wrath/Defiance stacks used to work, with your Crit rate ramping up at higher stacks. I don't think that it was ever beneficial to sit on your stacks for the passive, though.

Haste can be even more tricky because it also determines what weaves you can get away with without clipping. So if your GCD length keeps changing with your level of 'Darkside', then you'd have to know individual Darkside breakpoints at which you can double weave based on your own gear stats and latency. The last time we had a discussion about speed buffs (i.e. even Darkside being an 'always on' speed buff, there was some objection to that. I think it could be fun if it was tied in to a burst window (i.e. like original Blood Weapon), even if only for aesthetics.

Back when the Crit buff was heavier and the healing bonus was attached to it, too, we certainly sat on it from time to time, but I can't say that was necessarily for the best. That said, those stacks were slow to form and could only be spent all at once, so I imagine their actual gameplay implications would be nothing alike.

Attaching Haste to our standard burst window (likely of exactly enough length to trim an exact number of GCDs per minute) would be easier to control, but it also wouldn't really give us anything more to play with, mechanically. It'd be a benefit but, as you said -- only to aesthetics. It would do more than, say, an animation upgrade on a certain skill or slightly increasing our MP regen for one extra Edge per minute.
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Just throwing another $0.02 into the pool here, while I'd certainly prefer a Blood Weapon attack speed buff over nothing, I'd ideally like to go much further with pace-variance, i.e., for it to be more than just a bit of added/embedded flavor.

[Archwizard]

I admit, I'm struggling to come up with any sort of maintenance combo that doesn't blatantly riff on PLD's (like bringing back Scourge) or WAR's (like putting Darkside on GCD). In theory you can get a similar time-gated element through other means, but those would probably involve restrictive/drifting cooldowns or new resources (including stacking effects).
... And frankly, while this may be reductive, I don't think "replace Souleater on every third combo" really offers much appeal for shifting our downtime.

However, I would invite the jury to consider that GNB also lacks a maintenance combo, and to my knowledge, there is no call for them to get one due to their varied GCD options.

Not that I'm saying "let's copy GNB in lieu of copying WAR or PLD," because ideally whatever we end up with is still unique to DRK's identity, but I would invite using GNB as a case study in considering acceptable alternatives for downtime, eg considering what works for them that says they don't need a maintenance combo? From there we might be able to work backwards.

[Icecylee]

I admit, I'm struggling to come up with any sort of maintenance combo that doesn't blatantly riff on PLD's (like bringing back Scourge) or WAR's (like putting Darkside on GCD). In theory you can get a similar time-gated element through other means, but those would probably involve restrictive/drifting cooldowns or new resources (including stacking effects).
... And frankly, while this may be reductive, I don't think "replace Souleater on every third combo" really offers much appeal for shifting our downtime.

However, I would invite the jury to consider that GNB also lacks a maintenance combo, and to my knowledge, there is no call for them to get one due to their varied GCD options.

Not that I'm saying "let's copy GNB in lieu of copying WAR or PLD," because ideally whatever we end up with is still unique to DRK's identity, but I would invite using GNB as a case study in considering acceptable alternatives for downtime, eg considering what works for them that says they don't need a maintenance combo? From there we might be able to work backwards.

One idea comes to mind that would let DRK feel a little different, and help spread out the oGCDs a bit to, but.
You could repurpose Darkside as hard hitting GCD attack with something like a 15s recast or so, but is only usable for a short period of time after a Flood/Edge (so they'd give a stack of Darkside Ready or something for a few seconds, then it'd get consumed).

[Lyth]

...

It's probably worthwhile doing a comparison in terms of GCDs rather than combos.

GNB Single Target: 8 GCDs* (33%)
GNB AoE: 5 GCDs
Total Actions: 24*

*Counting the Gnashing Fang combo and the Continuation oGCDs as one button each.

DRK Single Target: 6 GCDs (23%)
DRK AoE: 3 GCDs
Total Actions: 26

Despite similar action counts, DRK's gameplay places more emphasis on its oGCDs, and the effect would probably be even more pronounced if you compared DRK with lower CPM tanks. That's part of the reason why we've probably moved away from the Blood Weapon 'haste' effect, because having a shorter GCD reduces your ability to double weave. I think the solution is to add in more GCDs in 7.0 to balance the job out, regardless of whether they're combo actions or not.

That being said, additional combos can be fun, especially if they're resource gated and hit like a truck. And I would love a tag team finisher with Frey, even if it comes down to them hitting the mob from behind with a chair while we do an elaborate bladedance.