A Change to Phoenix Downs

[Yeastyloins]

I'm not sure about this assertion, but I'm also not sure if I understand which point you're trying to assert, so I'd like to clarify those details before writing an actual response.

Are you asserting that 'Normal'-tier content won't properly prepare players for entering Extreme+ if everyone in a randomly-matched Duty Finder party can Raise?

Or are you asserting that having more distributed Raising capability inside an Extreme+ environment would damage the sense of accomplishment in Savage/Ultimate by removing what you're terming 'mechanical play'?

I'm just saying it cultivates bad habits for players entering Extreme+ content where not paying attention can either hinder group or prevent groups from completing content. The way I see normal content is a place to either leisurely experience the story or to practice a new job while challenging yourself to not mess up mechanics. But it still should teach players to shore up their play and if the punishment is significantly invalidated by the fact that every player can raise, then it turns it becoming a norm of failing mechanics to not be a punishment other than slowing down how fast the duty is finished.

An anecdotal experience I can give for myself that happened a few days ago was doing O10n the second time ever on my WHM which is the first healer I am playing. We had a situation where the other healer died, massive damage was out on the whole group and Swiftcast still had a 14 second CD on it so I couldn't quickly the other healer. We also did not have a SMN or a RDM so I was the only one who could do it. I was running low on MP and it was a high stress situation to keep not only the tanks up but everyone healthy. In that moment I remembered I had my Planetary Indulgence and using that plus trying to make good use of a thin air stack and my lilys I was able to salvage the situation long enough for swiftcast to come up and raise my other healer while avoiding mechanics. I found it to be an informative experience for myself to learn how to play my WHM but also how to reactively play better.

All of that experience would have been taken away if some other DPS just immediately picked them up while I cast medica 2 then spam medica at will with no regard to my MP and then immediately went back to spamming Stone.

[ty_taurus]

Damn, if only you understood that I was talking about having Phoenix Downs in Casual content (I.E normal raids, trials, and dungeons including roulettes) would lead to bad habits within the playerbase.

I think your logic is inherently flawed. First and foremost, you can't possibly prove that to be true or false regardless because it's not something we can currently test. Moreover, in what way does casual content currently do anything to teach good habits as it is? Jumping into hardcore content is like learning a new game mode, and you'd need to overhaul the entire game in order to change that. Whether or not Phoenix Downs became usable in those casual aspects of content would make absolutely no difference in how poorly casual content sets you up for hardcore content.

The reality is, getting into savage requires an entirely different mentality, and the fact that you couldn't be able to use them in hardcore content would at most force you to learn to deal. Additionally, raising isn't really that powerful in hardcore content anyway because you can't really afford many deaths in savage anyway, assuming someone's mistake doesn't just wipe the whole raid with the snap of a finger.

Everyone should be avoiding mechanics. The healer isn't there to "heal stupid".

Then delete raising from the game entirely. People aren't allowed to make mistakes.

[Shurrikhan]

I feel like in-combat use should at least have a significant cast time or similar impediment to be more on par with the 8s cast and MP cost of having been used by a healer. The 3-minute cooldown, after all, is essentially split among all non-healer players capable of using the Phoenix Down. We don't need to make consumables, duly rotated, outright superior to actual resurrection spells.

Other than that, I'm all for it.

[kaynide]

While we are at it, give us reraise!

[Kazimere]

I feel like in-combat use should at least have a significant cast time or similar impediment to be more on par with the 8s cast and MP cost of having been used by a healer. The 3-minute cooldown, after all, is essentially split among all non-healer players capable of using the Phoenix Down. We don't need to make consumables, duly rotated, outright superior to actual resurrection spells.

Other than that, I'm all for it.

Just make it share a recast with potions. That’ll fix abusing it in content that matters quick.

[Shurrikhan]

Just make it share a recast with potions. That’ll fix abusing it in content that matters quick.

I imagine that'd tick some people off, but I'd be fine with that, yeah. It'd mean no rezzes in a fight with a dps check hard enough to want potions for, but... honestly, a death that non-rezzer would need to Phoenix Down in that case would probably have cost them the clear anyways? (Per OP's point #4, Down would be unusable in most such content anyways.)

[LeonKeyh]

Yeah, I'm against the idea. This kind of stuff creates expectations that everyone:

1. Has Phoenix downs on them whenever they run content
2. Is aware what they do and how/when to use it

Also, in the easier content it'll rarely get used and in the harder content it could possibly invalidate certain things (e.g. strats where both tanks invuln and just raise the healers back up).

It also will mess with the overall balancing of the jobs. If everyone can rez, then jobs like SMN/RDM will need to be looked at in terms of balancing since they aren't "special" anymore. Also, fights will need to be rebalanced and possibly redesigned.

Hard pass.

[ty_taurus]

Yeah, I'm against the idea. This kind of stuff creates expectations that everyone:

1. Has Phoenix downs on them whenever they run content
2. Is aware what they do and how/when to use it

Also, in the easier content it'll rarely get used and in the harder content it could possibly invalidate certain things (e.g. strats where both tanks invuln and just raise the healers back up).

It also will mess with the overall balancing of the jobs. If everyone can rez, then jobs like SMN/RDM will need to be looked at in terms of balancing since they aren't "special" anymore. Also, fights will need to be rebalanced and possibly redesigned.

Hard pass.

No one reads these days.

[YukikoKurosawa]

I have never used a phoenix down nor seen someone use a phoenix down. I honest to god forgot they existed before reading this thread. They are utterly useless and redundant by the fact that you can't use them in combat and there is never a situation where you are in need of a rez and there isn't a healer, summoner, or red mage around to just rez you normally.

[Skivvy]

I actually like this a lot but I would make phoenix downs restricted to 1 per party member but refilled for each boss battle. In a four group party where only the healer dies constantly, that's 3 possible rezzes. Anymore than that now feels like a crutch, especially since 4 group content have always been designed to be cleared with relative ease.

In 8man normal content, same deal but no refills after a wipe

And lastly, 24man should be exempt. Even if all alliances have no smn/rdm, that's still six healers who can keep an eye on each other should one fall.

I think this would be my take for the most part as well. Maybe put them on a 5 minute timer or so, that way they should be up around each boss.

In a raid situation, an attempt could take 5 minutes, but even if it's not up yet, no biggie. Try not to die.

I don't like the idea of carrying several at a time and being able to spam them.