What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Sevan]

(Again, I hope my English can express my thoughts well ......)
I said I might stop posting ......I broke my word. because I might figure out why they would create a story with such authoritarian/chauvinist values ......
The purpose of life in ancient times was to build the planet.
For this purpose, Hermes judged the right to life of many creations, and he suffered for it.
He learned that after all the suffering, the planets would be destroyed, so he despaired.
He was trapped by the value that "the value of the existence of all living things is to serve the planets". This is the key, but the story does not show it clearly.
Because the story shows that sunder the world is the right answer to his question, but any sober person knows how cruel the modern world is.
I think there is a possibility that in the original script, Hermes wanted the right answer not from Hedlin, but from Zodiak.
In the final days, there was a clear shift in the thinking of the Ancients, who were willing to sacrifice new life to redeem their loved ones. This meant destroying the planet's natural environment.
Ascians further demonstrates this change in values as they teach the art of invoking the gods, and the prime will suck the planet's Ether dry.
They no longer care about the planet, only about their loved ones.
If we care about transient and eternal love, then what does it matter if the planet is doomed to extinction in the probable Future?
Hydaelyn, as a conservative, shows concern about this shift. The result was a fight between two gods, and a awful fault committed by accident.
But some people in the SE, want Hydaelyn to be the right answer.
Since the ancient world is considered "problematic", how can the Hydaelyn be the right answer?
sunder the world......
We don't care what the players who love the story think anymore, and we don't care if changing the cornerstone of a building will make it collapse. We got the job done.

[Sevan]

This story makes my heart feel like it's on fire.......dear mommy? I have to say, in reality,the authoritarian "dear daddy" ......They'll do all the things Hydaelyn has done
For example: saying "All for life" but actually destroying it. You have no choice but to listen to them lie, and to listen to many people call them "Dear Daddy"(In the political propaganda),because they are deceived and not victimized for the moment. and watch Authority revise history(or the unending codex)......Saying that without them there would be no you,so you have to be unconditionally loyal to them......
This is why I hate EW.

[Lauront]

Personally I doubt they were ever going with them shifting to a mentality of bleeding the star dry. There may have been (and probably was) a change from an original script, but I don't think it was along those lines.

As can be seen below, their explicit goal is to resume stewardship of their star, and the sacrifice was through surplus life engendered through their efforts, after Zodiark re-vitalised it.



The Ascian change in the rites is deliberately to cause chaos, to enable them to cause Calamities and proceed with the Rejoinings to restore the star, as they seek to revert both it and the souls of the sundered to their original state. In their view, leaving it in its broken state is worse than some temporary damage it'll recover from.

The problem with the post-Elpis cutscene is it brushes over a lot of the nuance established through the earlier sources - even the third stage of sacrifices had divided them in debate, whereas that scene just presents some distraught, grief-struck ancient strawmen being given a rather tone-deaf lecture that doesn't explain the basis of her concerns and so no doubt seems crazy, and makes it seem like they were just going to keep sacrificing themselves to "perfect" their star, no doubt to make it look like the Plenty/final area of the Dead Ends.

This story makes my heart feel like it's on fire.......dear mommy? I have to say, in reality,the authoritarian "dear daddy" ......They'll do all the things Hydaelyn has done
For example: saying "All for life" but actually destroying it. You have no choice but to listen to them lie, and to listen to many people call them "Dear Daddy"(In the political propaganda),because they are deceived and not victimized for the moment. and watch Authority revise history(or the unending codex)......Saying that without them there would be no you,so you have to be unconditionally loyal to them......
This is why I hate EW.

Yes, I certainly agree with that. BTW, if you're still reading here, an answer to the below would be appreciated:

I'd very much like to know where on 2ch/futaba they discuss FFXIV, as I just can't find it on any of the game-related boards... in addition, there is the textboard, 5chan, which has an FFXIV-dedicated board. They can be remarkably blunt on there. Other than that, it seems scattered, with some on twitter, some on discord, and so on.

[Sevan]

oh..... My English is not good, I didn't mean that they were " shifting to a mentality of bleeding the star dry."Ascians teach the skill of summoning prime, only to serve their purpose. Similar to how we invented the automobile, but that doesn't mean we want to destroy the planet.
I think the shift in their thinking is, "from selflessness to selfishness", or rather, from God to man.
After Zodiark re-vitalised the star, it is clear that the vast majority of people have lost loved ones. Here their values change.
From planets over life, they become life over planets. Similar to how humans will fish and hunt to take care of their families.
In order to save so much life, it is likely that the natural ecology will be severely damaged. This was not their intention, just as humans did not intentionally cause global warming either.
In the final days, "some distraught, grief-struck ancient", they were like humans. Grief-struck and desperate to regain what was lost.
The old version of Hydaelyn, probably worried about environmental destruction, decided to limit Zodiak's powers.
But this script has been abandoned. the post-Elpis cutscene ...... It seems to have become that because the Ancients were so human-like, they should have been genocided.
[

]Yes, I certainly agree with that. BTW, if you're still reading here, an answer to the below would be appreciated:

I'm not very good at using this forum ..... About the Japanese, I just know they often post in the anonymous forum 2ch, don't know much more than that.

[Lauront]

I know the post-Elpis scene tries to make it seem that they shifted to such a perspective (and this may well have been the writers' intention on some level, even if I don't think it succeeds), but I have to say, based on the original sources preceding it, I just don't see it that way. The decision is framed in the context of the best way forward to steward their star, and even Venat grants this point in Anamnesis Anyder. Furthermore, and to take what we learnt from EW and fill in some blanks, we also know that the ancients inside Zodiark existed in a limbo, and could not return to the star, which the ancients valued highly. So this would seem like a condemnation of the souls that created Zodiark, to their people who still lived on, and to me it seems like no accident that Elidibus's return appears to have been the catalyst to bring more of their people on board to the planned final stage of sacrifices, because he could directly tell them what the state of mind of the souls inside Zodiark was and whether they would approve of this action or not, while at the same time Venat's group was making very vague claims which they did not provide evidence for. Just a guess as to what happened but it is a very compelling logic, IMO.

Also thank you for answering my question. Sorry, I had thought you were a Japanese player.

[Teraq]

Emet-Selch doesnt even agree with Emet-Selch on that. If he actually believed that he wouldnt have subconsiously had his recreations refer to the Scions as young children and not un alive monsters, and he wouldnt have subconsciously spawned a Hyth that activly disagrees with that take and goes out of his way to help.

Thats not even an Endwalker thing, base SHB is very unsubtle with showing that no matter what he actually says Emet clearly sees them as people. Foolish and young people, but real people non the less.

IMO the gap between what Emet says he views the Sundered as and the implications to the contrary just comes down to the Unsundered having to tell themselves sundered lives don't matter. Otherwise, the feelings of empathy and guilt might come in the way of their duty, and considering they are the only 3 survivors (no, she doesn't count) and they probably feel a massive responsibility to bring their people back as they were world leaders, they just plain couldn't afford that. It's like any job where you have to watch animals or people die, but a lot more extreme; you have to have a certain degree of detachment, otherwise you are destroying yourself emotionally. (Which is one of the reasons why Hermes's character made no sense to me. Consider another job, dude, please, how long have you been doing this????)

That emotional conflict is, I suspect, one of the reasons Elidibus did not want to refresh his memory. Beside his reason of not wanting to suffer through the memory loss again, Emet's recognition of us as Azem, and his overall sentimentality, is part of what caused him to have a change of heart after his defeat. Elidibus most likely wanted to avoid precisely that, considering he was bothered enough by Emet recognizing our Ancient self to ask us who we were. Notably, even though he was able to see us as Azem with soul sight at the beginning of 5.3 (our character appearing as an Ancient shade with a black mask), he never did recognize us, not even in Endwalker. A very sound choice from a purely professional and utilitarian point of view, given that it's now canon that he and Azem were good friends and investigated things together, at least, if not having a brotherly relationship like the short story implies. The virgin Emet-Selch falling to his sentimentality VS. the Chad Elidibus purposely steeling himself.

Even so, I was relatively fine (given the constraints the writers appeared to want for the story) with where SHB left things, i.e. a position of mutual understanding and honouring the legacy of the ancients, but then EW comes in, throws in time travel but denies an AU with a better ending for the ancients, and also tries to present what she did to the ancients as unambiguously justified (vs SHB's more perspective-driven approach), and yes, I am salty over that. All that plot gimmick amounted to doing is making the story more convoluted and not being used for the one good thing it could've done.

Exactly, and it sucks, sorry not sorry Endwalker.

[Lauront]

IMO the gap between what Emet says he views the Sundered as and the implications to the contrary just comes down to the Unsundered having to tell themselves sundered lives don't matter. Otherwise, the feelings of empathy and guilt might come in the way of their duty, and considering they are the only 3 survivors (no, she doesn't count) and they probably feel a massive responsibility to bring their people back as they were world leaders, they just plain couldn't afford that. It's like any job where you have to watch animals or people die, but a lot more extreme; you have to have a certain degree of detachment, otherwise you are destroying yourself emotionally. (Which is why Hermes's character made no sense to me. Consider another job, dude, please, how long have you been doing this????)

That emotional conflict is, I suspect, one of the reasons Elidibus did not want to refresh his memory. Beside his reason of not wanting to suffer through the memory loss again, Emet's recognition of us as Azem, and his overall sentimentality, is part of what caused him to have a change of heart after his defeat. Elidibus most likely wanted to avoid precisely that, considering he was bothered enough by Emet recognizing our Ancient self to ask us who we were. Notably, even though he was able to see us as Azem with soul sight at the beginning of 5.3 (our character appearing as an Ancient shade with a black mask), he never did recognize us, not even in Endwalker. A very sound choice from a purely professional and utilitarian point of view. The virgin Emet-Selch falling to his sentimentality VS. the Chad Elidibus purposely steeling himself.

This is exactly the sort of tension I envision as well. Clearly, viewing certain beings as child-like versions of your own people plainly means they are not equivalent in your eyes, and given all we know of the ancients (very long/immortal lifespans, full range of Echo powers, creation magicks etc.), it's clear why that might be. All the same, it would be difficult for many of them to feel completely detached in the process given that the sundered are sapient beings, but they have a duty to fulfil nonetheless to restore their people and star's (from their POV) unjust (and all the way up to EW, unexplained) fragmentation at the hand of one of their own.

[EgilTheStressedMage]

There had to have been some meddling from the bigwigs. There’s no way Yoshida thought this was fine without a metaphorical gun pointed to his head. I mean look at how SE treated XV and the CEO literally opened the new year with “So HaVe YoU hEaRd Of NfTs?!?!1”. I would have waited another five years if it meant we got two more amazing stories like in ShB. Sadly we live in the instant gratification age and can’t have that, so instead here’s budget insert edgelord here and the convoluted mess not even Nomura while actually drunk could come up with.

[KageTokage]

I'm honestly more inclined to think it was Yoshida himself trying to get more directly involved with writing process because he's had some...odd takes about things before, like not understanding why Emet-Selch was so popular, citing all of the harm the Ascians have caused as something he would've expected to make him unrelatable and unlikeable.

He's likewise worded things in a manner that makes it seem like he doesn't get the dislike some people have for Hydaelyn/Venat, either.

[Rulakir]

It's interesting to note that Hydaelyn consistently refers to the sundered as children. People view it in terms of endearment, but it's more likely her view was similar to that of Emet's.

Personally I say we refrain from Venat Genocide Bad Ascian Genocide Good because at the end of the day they're both bad and genocide. It really doesn't matter if the world used to be better, I wouldn't give up mine for something I wouldn't get to experience. And no, our soul being preserved doesn't mean we would survive, as we've been over numerous times discussing Venat's genocide. Obviously what Venat did was evil but like... at the end of the day I'm gonna try to keep living my life. Sucks for you man but I can't control what happened in the past, now quit destroying our world or I'll kill you.

Given the constant defense of the sundering and glorification of Venat I see no reason why I shouldn't embrace being a rejoiner. According to the writers, genocide is fine as long as it's for a 'good' reason so at this point it's just a matter of picking your team. You can choose not to root for anyone, of course, but if Venat fans get to celebrate their Genocide Queen without shame then I'm going to do the same with the Ascians.

Having said that, I would have worked tirelessly to find an alternate way to do it, but I'm not one who would've accepted the violation the sundering was because 'what's done is done' .

Also, whether or not someone would consent to being rejoined is subjective. I've often thought the Ascians probably could have developed a following similar to WoW's Cult of the Damned where the living assisted the Lich King in the hopes of being rewarded with undeath. It's not something that would bother me, personally.