What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[not_ya_wify]

Same. It's both laughable and disturbing how much more EW makes sense if you add in Hydaelyn tempering.

My headcanon is if Zodiark was needed to maintain the aetheric barrier then Hydaelyn was needed to maintain the sundering, so without her the effects will begin to reverse themselves. It may take centuries, but eventually all will return to the way it was. This is still within character for Venat too as her goals were to defeat Metetion and introduce suffering. Now that both those have been achieved there's no reason for things to remain separated.

Yes that would indeed be neat. Although we still wouldn't be able to witness that world. At least not as our current reincarnation of the WoL. I REALLY want to save them and frolic through the flower field with Emet-Selch. Preferrably Shadowbringers Emet-Selch who has seen shit because the Endwalker version felt like a watered-down basic Tsundere trope version of him. ShB Emet had way more depth and charisma IMO. It would also be great to see that version untempered and see him cope with everything he did while being tempered. Although technically, Zodiark wasn't evil and so not sure how much the tempering actually mattered. I also have to agree when ShB Emet-Selch says that he cannot be held accountable for murder because he does not consider us to be truly alive. I thought the same way even before he said it. After seeing Amaurot, I felt that the world around me wasn't real anymore and I'm fighting to keep alive these lifeless husks while preventing them from actually being saved in my childish ignorance.

I think whether the current people of Eteirys should be considered "real people" or "really alive" is a philosophical question that is colored by your experience. Our equivalent to Emet's experience would be that Venat took everyone and made it so they can only survive for one day. Is life really worth living if you only have one day? I remember recently seeing some Twitter post where someone tried to be inspirational and asked what people would do if they only had one hour to live and most people responded "I'd go to sleep." Most players have experienced life as a sundered person and this is the normal, whereas Emet-Selch has not only known eternity but he has also lived the lives of the sundered over and over for thousands of years and still finds the sundered wanting to be stewards of the star. He doesn't just say this because they are short-lived but also because they commit cruelty to one another. When Alisae then retorts back that he can't possibly understand because life is only worth living if you die it feels like this little shitty know-it-all is patronizingly talking back at someone who actually has experienced both perspectives while she only knows her own.

The only person, who doesn't feel like a know-it-all brat in this case is Gaia because Mitron did give her his memories and she still chose to stay with Ryne. Which to be honest also seems ridiculous to me that she would choose her teenage girlfriend over the love of her life... no ETERNITY that she has spent millenia with to fight for the salvation of humanity. For what? Cookies and tea with a 15-year old she just met (and couldn't stand a few days ago).

Anyways, maybe I'm viewing the story differently because of a Chinese drama I watched before playing Shadowbringers called Ashes of Love I think. There is a similar plotline that makes it more ambiguous who's in the right or wrong. Basically it's a story that is set in the realm of Gods and a young maiden fairy (only 50,000 years old!) falls in love with the God of War. We spend like 20 episodes in the God's world and get invested in this story, but things happen and she has to die and the only way to save her is to send her do a mortal trial in which she must bear 3 great sufferings or her immortal soul will forever be lost. She gets born as a deaf mortal who is deaf, abandoned by her family, and destined to die by her 19th birthday. If she doesn't die before her birthday, her soul will vanish. Problem is, the human version of her soul has no recollection who she once was and is basically a completely different person. God of War is basically watching her and trying to comfort her but knows she must die. Then another immortal comes and meets her as this human incaranation and falls in love with that version of her. At some point God of War reveals to her that she is really the soul of an immortal and that she must die to pass her trial and return back to the realm of Gods. But she is against it because she insists "the person you speak of isn't me. You are asking me to sacrifice my life so she can live" and the other immortal who is in love with her human form says the same and tries to prevent her death. In the end she begrudgingly decides to sacrifice herself so the fairy can live. After the trial the naive little fairy becomes an incredibly powerful Goddess and I think at some point someone asks her about her memory as a human and she says something along the lines of how her human life becomes less and less important.

I saw the Ascians dilemma from that perspective. They must sacrifice the WoL to resurrect the Azem but the WoL has really been Azem all along, she just can't remember her life before the sundering. It's not really killing the WoL as much as it is saving Azem's soul.

[Xirean]

I also have to agree when ShB Emet-Selch says that he cannot be held accountable for murder because he does not consider us to be truly alive. I thought the same way even before he said it. After seeing Amaurot, I felt that the world around me wasn't real anymore and I'm fighting to keep alive these lifeless husks while preventing them from actually being saved in my childish ignorance.

Something to keep in mind. Just because the sundered are not on the same level as Emet, the idea that he wouldn't be killing people is very flawed. The sundered can have a full on philosophical conversation with him, that's quite different from a childs ignorance. Even if their perspective could be expanded by being rejoined, that doesn't justify killing them all to do that.

The only person, who doesn't feel like a know-it-all brat in this case is Gaia because Mitron did give her his memories and she still chose to stay with Ryne. Which to be honest also seems ridiculous to me that she would choose her teenage girlfriend over the love of her life... no ETERNITY that she has spent millenia with to fight for the salvation of humanity. For what? Cookies and tea with a 15-year old she just met (and couldn't stand a few days ago).

I saw the Ascians dilemma from that perspective. They must sacrifice the WoL to resurrect the Azem but the WoL has really been Azem all along, she just can't remember her life before the sundering. It's not really killing the WoL as much as it is saving Azem's soul.

Gaia is a new life. She is not the same exact person that Mitron lost. Just because it's the same soul doesn't mean it's not a new person. By forcing Loghrif back, Mitron was effectively erasing Gaia. That's not a good thing and I'm not sure why you would be surprised that whatever remnants of Gaia were still present would want to hold onto her own existence.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Gaia is a new life. She is not the same exact person that Mitron lost. Just because it's the same soul doesn't mean it's not a new person. By forcing Loghrif back, Mitron was effectively erasing Gaia. That's not a good thing and I'm not sure why you would be surprised that whatever remnants of Gaia were still present would want to hold onto her own existence.

Whats interesting is Savage paints a different picture. In Savage Mitron's death seems to break her and she accepts being Loghrif. To me the Ryne thing just seems like pandering. It makes no logical sense even with Gaia being a different person.

[Xirean]

Whats interesting is Savage paints a different picture. In Savage Mitron's death seems to break her and she accepts being Loghrif. To me the Ryne thing just seems like pandering. It makes no logical sense even with Gaia being a different person.

How is it pandering? How does someone trying to maintain who they are make no logical sense to you?

[EgilTheStressedMage]

Something to keep in mind. Just because the sundered are not on the same level as Emet, the idea that he wouldn't be killing people is very flawed. The sundered can have a full on philosophical conversation with him, that's quite different from a childs ignorance. Even if their perspective could be expanded by being rejoined, that doesn't justify killing them all to do that.



Gaia is a new life. She is not the same exact person that Mitron lost. Just because it's the same soul doesn't mean it's not a new person. By forcing Loghrif back, Mitron was effectively erasing Gaia. That's not a good thing and I'm not sure why you would be surprised that whatever remnants of Gaia were still present would want to hold onto her own existence.

Exactly how I feel about the denizens of the Source. Hell, I remember them telling Varis to politely screw himself when he presented the very idea. I still stand by their decision regardless of what I've learned in ShB and EW.

[Rulakir]

Although we still wouldn't be able to witness that world. At least not as our current reincarnation of the WoL. I REALLY want to save them and frolic through the flower field with Emet-Selch.

Unfortunately, you're probably not going to outside of fan creations. I can see Emet sleeping away in the aetherial sea until such time as Azem is whole again, which is my hope. Once the trio is reunited they can reincarnate if they wish. Have you seen the NieR x FFXIV crossover? Emet's "paradise" was just being with them in Amaurot, that's what he wants back.

The only person, who doesn't feel like a know-it-all brat in this case is Gaia because Mitron did give her his memories and she still chose to stay with Ryne. Which to be honest also seems ridiculous to me that she would choose her teenage girlfriend over the love of her life... no ETERNITY that she has spent millenia with to fight for the salvation of humanity.

I agree, but the Ascians are likely never going to be given a win. I've thought maybe they'll be successful in the 8UC timeline because the WoL is dead, but I doubt the current team in charge of the story would allow it. Personally, I love Azem and the unsundered world far more than the WoL and the sundered world. I think that they succeeded too well in making everything Ancient wonderful because now that we're doing a "new adventure" I find nothing to be excited about, I was more interested in the past.

Anyways, maybe I'm viewing the story differently because of a Chinese drama I watched before playing Shadowbringers called Ashes of Love I think.

I've seen that series! All that is just the tip of the iceberg too. :P

It's disappointing, I feel the way the dragons were handled in HW was superior to the Ancients. Not only do they repeatedly state that with their concept of time the events of 1k years ago are like that of yesterday, but they've been around long enough that anything mortals find profound they find banal. Personally, I thought the Scions' arguments to Emet in Amaurot were weak. Why would an immortal care about their ~100 year lifespans? That's nothing to them and, frankly, a small sacrifice in the grand scheme of things. Once again, in HW it's said that to dragons the life of an Elezen is like that of a fresh cut flower and they're one of the longer lived races.

I hate everything about the sundering. The whole concept of split souls bothers me a lot. I'm forever going to wish everyone and everything returns to being whole.

[Slatersev]

Yes that would indeed be neat. Although we still wouldn't be able to witness that world. At least not as our current reincarnation of the WoL. I REALLY want to save them and frolic through the flower field with Emet-Selch. Preferrably Shadowbringers Emet-Selch who has seen shit because the Endwalker version felt like a watered-down basic Tsundere trope version of him. ShB Emet had way more depth and charisma IMO. It would also be great to see that version untempered and see him cope with everything he did while being tempered. Although technically, Zodiark wasn't evil and so not sure how much the tempering actually mattered. I also have to agree when ShB Emet-Selch says that he cannot be held accountable for murder because he does not consider us to be truly alive. I thought the same way even before he said it. After seeing Amaurot, I felt that the world around me wasn't real anymore and I'm fighting to keep alive these lifeless husks while preventing them from actually being saved in my childish ignorance.

Emet-Selch doesnt even agree with Emet-Selch on that. If he actually believed that he wouldnt have subconsiously had his recreations refer to the Scions as young children and not un alive monsters, and he wouldnt have subconsciously spawned a Hyth that activly disagrees with that take and goes out of his way to help.

Thats not even an Endwalker thing, base SHB is very unsubtle with showing that no matter what he actually says Emet clearly sees them as people. Foolish and young people, but real people non the less.

[Teraq]

Emet-Selch doesnt even agree with Emet-Selch on that. If he actually believed that he wouldnt have subconsiously had his recreations refer to the Scions as young children and not un alive monsters, and he wouldnt have subconsciously spawned a Hyth that activly disagrees with that take and goes out of his way to help.

Thats not even an Endwalker thing, base SHB is very unsubtle with showing that no matter what he actually says Emet clearly sees them as people. Foolish and young people, but real people non the less.

IMO the gap between what Emet says he views the Sundered as and the implications to the contrary just comes down to the Unsundered having to tell themselves sundered lives don't matter. Otherwise, the feelings of empathy and guilt might come in the way of their duty, and considering they are the only 3 survivors (no, she doesn't count) and they probably feel a massive responsibility to bring their people back as they were world leaders, they just plain couldn't afford that. It's like any job where you have to watch animals or people die, but a lot more extreme; you have to have a certain degree of detachment, otherwise you are destroying yourself emotionally. (Which is one of the reasons why Hermes's character made no sense to me. Consider another job, dude, please, how long have you been doing this????)

That emotional conflict is, I suspect, one of the reasons Elidibus did not want to refresh his memory. Beside his reason of not wanting to suffer through the memory loss again, Emet's recognition of us as Azem, and his overall sentimentality, is part of what caused him to have a change of heart after his defeat. Elidibus most likely wanted to avoid precisely that, considering he was bothered enough by Emet recognizing our Ancient self to ask us who we were. Notably, even though he was able to see us as Azem with soul sight at the beginning of 5.3 (our character appearing as an Ancient shade with a black mask), he never did recognize us, not even in Endwalker. A very sound choice from a purely professional and utilitarian point of view, given that it's now canon that he and Azem were good friends and investigated things together, at least, if not having a brotherly relationship like the short story implies. The virgin Emet-Selch falling to his sentimentality VS. the Chad Elidibus purposely steeling himself.

Even so, I was relatively fine (given the constraints the writers appeared to want for the story) with where SHB left things, i.e. a position of mutual understanding and honouring the legacy of the ancients, but then EW comes in, throws in time travel but denies an AU with a better ending for the ancients, and also tries to present what she did to the ancients as unambiguously justified (vs SHB's more perspective-driven approach), and yes, I am salty over that. All that plot gimmick amounted to doing is making the story more convoluted and not being used for the one good thing it could've done.

Exactly, and it sucks, sorry not sorry Endwalker.

[Lauront]

IMO the gap between what Emet says he views the Sundered as and the implications to the contrary just comes down to the Unsundered having to tell themselves sundered lives don't matter. Otherwise, the feelings of empathy and guilt might come in the way of their duty, and considering they are the only 3 survivors (no, she doesn't count) and they probably feel a massive responsibility to bring their people back as they were world leaders, they just plain couldn't afford that. It's like any job where you have to watch animals or people die, but a lot more extreme; you have to have a certain degree of detachment, otherwise you are destroying yourself emotionally. (Which is why Hermes's character made no sense to me. Consider another job, dude, please, how long have you been doing this????)

That emotional conflict is, I suspect, one of the reasons Elidibus did not want to refresh his memory. Beside his reason of not wanting to suffer through the memory loss again, Emet's recognition of us as Azem, and his overall sentimentality, is part of what caused him to have a change of heart after his defeat. Elidibus most likely wanted to avoid precisely that, considering he was bothered enough by Emet recognizing our Ancient self to ask us who we were. Notably, even though he was able to see us as Azem with soul sight at the beginning of 5.3 (our character appearing as an Ancient shade with a black mask), he never did recognize us, not even in Endwalker. A very sound choice from a purely professional and utilitarian point of view. The virgin Emet-Selch falling to his sentimentality VS. the Chad Elidibus purposely steeling himself.

This is exactly the sort of tension I envision as well. Clearly, viewing certain beings as child-like versions of your own people plainly means they are not equivalent in your eyes, and given all we know of the ancients (very long/immortal lifespans, full range of Echo powers, creation magicks etc.), it's clear why that might be. All the same, it would be difficult for many of them to feel completely detached in the process given that the sundered are sapient beings, but they have a duty to fulfil nonetheless to restore their people and star's (from their POV) unjust (and all the way up to EW, unexplained) fragmentation at the hand of one of their own.