Petition to keep non-instanced dungeons.

[Jinko]

Do you remember being level 9, sitting in North Gustaberg just wandering around zones because not only did the zone have good music, but it looked awesome? Strolling into Gusgen just to get taken down by the skeles... wandering through the marshes just to see your first malboro and then run hoping it didnt see you. .

NO.. no I did not, are you trying to say I was some Bastokian scum !!

I do have similar memeories from starting out in Sarutabaruta though.

[Jinko]

You aren't thinking very hard. While it can be argued that the burning circles is instanced. They do not encompass the entire dungeon.

Bedeaux
Davoi
Castle ostroja
Mamook
Halvung
The Ship graveyard zone whose name escapes me

All these are beastman areas, with bosses that can be seen and faced outside of an instance forcefully separating the players.
Anyone can enter the trap door leading to Tee Xicu the Manifest, Anyone can cross the zone line and see Qulun Dome, and Za' Dha.

And yes, they do count even though they are years old.

All those places you mention are zones agreed much like Stongholds, they have bosses but I would hardly call them HNM's.

I actually like the way FFXIV has its small instance party content which is seperate from other players whilst still being in the main world. (faction leve NM's for example)

Also things like Final Job quests bosses or ZNM's in FFXI, this allows everyone their own chance with a boss without having to wait for hours for a spawn only to lose it to a botter.

There are clearly compromises that can be made on both sides, that being said Yoshi-p seems to be in favour of mainly instance based content and I'm cool with that also.

Most of XI's dungeons were not "instanced"... ALbeit, there were many, MANY great instances (Namis, Einherjar, BCNM's, etc) but I mean think of all the FFXI "Dungeon" areas... Eldieme, Garlaige, etc etc the open world dungeon zones.. there were plenty of areas non-instanced, and they coexisted beautifully with the ones that were.

There seems to be some confusion as to what a dungeon is here, when I say dungeon I think instanced content, when you say dungeon you mean like a labyrinth zone which you have to crawl through.

All those area's Kallera mentioned above to me are zones and not dungeons.

[Resheph]

a balance of both is good. What is the difference between an open world dungeon and an open world stronghold? they seem like the same thing to me

[Mushy]

Since 2.0 will be going to a zoning structure, dungeons can all be public(except the story/boss exclusive ones like ifrit and moogle.) But make them like Shposhae(sp?) the low level dungeon. But the solo player or party leader has the option to trigger instance. This provides players who want both what they want. So you enter a dungeon solo see some people fighting but cannot get forward to the boss so they invite you have full group toggle groups instance of the dungeon and take a go at the harder levels then the boss.

[Kiote]

I would say Sky is actually a zone with open world content.

An Open-World Dungeon IS a Zone with Open world content. It is a "Dungeon-like" zone.

They are intricate/difficult to navigate.

They have treasure and rare spawns.

They evoke the emotional response you obtain from exploring a dungeon.

They are they a places where the Community can interact on a level beyond party grinding and LS chat.

They have Content that requires Large groups of players and Content that can be completed alone or in small groups.

These are the Kind of place where you can happen upon something to do. Where there are always people doing something and sometimes you may have to ask a passerby for help.

FFXI attempted to do it with places like Monovopolis, Castle Oztroja and Garlage Citidel. They only failed in that they did not actually make any content for these areas.

[Kiote]

Wooo! Almost to 200! ^.^v

[Khal_Drogo]

What are you talking about, he is agreeing with my point... Stop making moot posts, unless you can bring something constructive to the table.

Lets try to keep this thread on topic.

lol you misunderstood....look at my post again, dude. I was suggesting that you continue "raging," b/c I agreed too xD -take notice of the "comma" before your name. It was an "order" to carry on with your debate. If I hadn't agreed w/ you, I would have said, "kallera, rage on Thepatriarch!!" -in that sentence, kallera is the "subject," and you're the object....in MY post, you're the "subject," blah blah blah -grammar 101


Anyway, in regards to staying on topic, this is WHY I didn't "agree" w/ you before....please read Jinko's post:

All those places you mention are zones agreed much like Stongholds, they have bosses but I would hardly call them HNM's...

...There seems to be some confusion as to what a dungeon is here, when I say dungeon I think instanced content, when you say dungeon you mean like a labyrinth zone which you have to crawl through.

All those area's Kallera mentioned above to me are zones and not dungeons.

And if that's the case, then OPEN-WORLD dungeons vs. INSTANCED dungeons is not really an issue, man. You, me, and Kallera need to be in the threads I mentioned earlier, getting more ppl on board w/ the XI/XIV hybrid (a.k.a. the only idea capable of salvaging this abomination).

[Viritess]

I'd like to repost here a pair of posts i placed in another thread on this subject, i think its content is even more relevent here. As a preface, i've been playing for now, about 3 weeks. It should be a long post with 2 parts, if you have the patience to read both, i appritiate it

-----------------

If i may, as a player who has only been playing for around 3 weeks, i wandered into a few open world dungeons. Shpo being one (and the first) of them as i was directed by a quest. I was kinda excited, though a lil underleveled i decided to give it a shot, and slowly worked my lancer way through bit by bit. It was fun, fighting my way through, running away screaming as too many crabs aggroed. and finally dying a bit into the second level.

What i enjoyed was sifting my way through with out directions, without expectations of an end point. Without zoning in and bypassing the trip there, or just seeing a cave in the distance and finding more then i bargained for (though they are marked on the map which is somewhat a spoiler but thats ok.)

Maybe its because many people in this thread have done it before, so the only remaining options to discuss is zerg fest spawn camping or instanced loot running, i don't know. But the value i see in having some open world dungeons is having a cave opening with no gate keeper giving it away. Had friends been made, maybe i could have called them and explored with them. But i just HAD to see.

I was thrilled for an out of the blue, no expectations of any real gain, adventure filled dungeon crawl.

So with that said, i don't think open dungeons should have the best loot. i don't much belive they should even have equal loot, i think their value can be in their extencive depth, lacking a time limit. Perhaps containing interesting puzzles to be solved. But most of all, for the adventurous folks like me who just have to see how far this cave goes.

---------------Second post--------------

Gear in alot of games is hotly discussed because when people do something difficult, and get a reward, they want to reward to somehow reflect that difficulty, and thats understandable. I can't hold anything against those who enjoy the endpoint. And as much as even i like to have something nice/rare/difficult to get it is often a fleeting moment. where you are stronger untill the moment something becomes nicer/rarer/even slightly more difficult to get, and the next endpoint is desired.

Someone like myself also enjoys the journey. Sometimes the journey can be the challenge but the challenge need not always be a large boss with a item drop. It can be the slow trod as i did in my last post, challenging it by myself to see whats there and how far i can get before i die.

But the journey can also be enjoyable without a standard expectation of gear, a certain type of gear relevent to something else somewhere else. Perhaps being underleveld and trying to follow in the wake of a group even though your all by yourself.

Maybe struggling through and finding another person, who like you, is attemtping the same thing. Heals are exchanged, then words, party invites and perhaps a friendship.

Or maybe to just see whats there. I wonder many times in many games if the discussion of gear and endpoint tends to block out discussions of many other important aspects of a game, even a genre based on adventure, exploration to know, not so much to aquire. Achivements is not exploration, they are only markers for places adventured. for some a list of points to plant their flag, and then quickly leave. And thats fine.

But for others, they are tokens of when the unknown became known. And i truly enjoy that aspect, and nothing encompasses those experiences as caves, old ruins etc. Unending fields and vast deserts while also very fun to explore, hold not quite the suspense and wonder as what is hidden from the world.

Earlier in this thread, though i'm having trouble finding the post to give credit a poster offered the idea of instanced boss fights within an open world dungeons, pull this lever/ place a lamp here, zone in as a limited group, instanced boss to fight.

I enjoy this idea alot, but i also would not want such a system to be the only exclusive one. As i would not want anyone to lose what they also enjoy, just as i wouldn't wish to lose the dungeon crawl i so thuroghly enjoyed. However, it would also aliviate some claim camp issues that have been so numerous over many games.

As far as gear goes, and as much as i would rather avoid the subject, as i tend to think it can overwhelm a topic. If i may, i'll add my thoughts. some issues always arrive with open world content when items are either tradeable and sellable, have a low drop rate of impressive stats. My thoughts on areas that are open and include gear drops tends to follow the same line i speak of above.

Adventure and the journey should be the theme. Perhaps any item drops should fore go the usuall stats and armor and low drop rates. And apply a more cosmetic, untradeable, and high droprate (80% even.) A mount (Just and ! example ! Could be statless hats with whisps circling it, use your imagination!) is only needed once per person. If it is not a great challenge to get by drop rate, there is less incentive to camp a spawn save for the duration of the groups need.

If the drop rate is high (or even garenteed) a group is more likely to include then exclude others who are after the same thing. If Open areas rely more on puzzles/pressure plates/ hidden keys perople are also more inclusive with others to find answers, join together, and have fun!

TL;DR So before i run out of /chars I belive the perspective of openworld and the rewards recived from them should be geared(pun intended) and directed towards the journey through them, the people you can meet within them, inclusiveness of those within, and the endventure of an untimed, set your pace, meet some people (and in my hope) Multi leveled many forks in the road adventure!

Thanks for your time, and i hope we will all find a little something we love to do in as many ways as we love to do it here!

[Khal_Drogo]

Reworded the Quotes:

Someone, like myself, enjoys the journey as well as the reward; but the journey doesn't always have to lead to a boss fight with a nice drop. It can be the slow trod, challenging in and of itself, simply "taken on" to see what's there and how far you can get before you die.

I agree, completely. Not every SINGLE "dungeon-like zone" should be centered around the idea of beating a boss. Again, forgive the example, but in XI, even the damn "Airship Pass/Rank 5" quest was more enjoyable than half the content in this game.

You had to enter 3 separate dungeons, "explore" to get to the most heavily guarded area of the "dungeon," to pick up some ??? item-thing, for intel or something -don't remember lol....ANYWAY, the point is, it was just another "adventure" with no real game-changing gain/reward.

I would definitely like to see something like this in XIV. Not everything has to be Sentinel/Sapahi/Caster's or w/e for every damn place you enter. Instead of trying to think up new pretty things to distract us, why not find innovative ways to "immerse us."

...As far as gear goes, ...some issues always arrive with open world content (when items are either tradeable and sellable, orhave a low drop rate of impressive stats).

My thoughts, on open areas that include gear drops, tend to follow this premise:

Adventure should be the theme.

I can't say that I feel the same. Yes, it's nice to try and incorporate a "casual-like" feel to the game, even when it comes to gear drops (making it more of a community effort, rather than a chore for the individual). However, doing so will DRASTICALLY reduce the incentives for *hardcore* players. Part of the "adventure" is trying to "outclass" fellow players. This adds to the immersive feel of the game, and promotes "healthy" competition.

Perhaps, any NM-dropped items should forego the usual impressively "statted," tradtional armor/low drop-rate cliche. Maybe, it should take on a different approach, like the following expamples:

~cosmeticly-focused rewards; untradeable, and high droprate (80% even.); mounts, possibly, etc.

...If the drop isn't so much trouble to come by, then there won't be as much of an incentive to "permanently" camp a spawn -save for the number of drops needed to satisfy the immediate demand....If the drop rate is high, or even guaranteed, a group is more likely to include others who are after the same thing, rather than excluding them and competing with them.

If open areas rely more on puzzles/pressure plates/hidden keys, people are much more likely to include others in their "adventures."

Personally, I liked camping the spawns. It was another aspect of the game that added to the sense of accomplishment players would get once they claimed the NM, let alone getting the drop. That's another thing...the way NMs work right now is really tacky.

Players used to need to capitalize on a number of different features in order to successfully claim an NM (widescan, flee, provoke, charm, dia, stun, shadowbind, etc.). There were a number of different ways to give yourself the competitive edge when competing for claims, and that made the experience all the more "intense" (which further contributed to making NM camping, an enjoyable experience)

[Sephrick]

Personally, I liked camping the spawns. It was another aspect of the game that added to the sense of accomplishment players would get once they claimed the NM, let alone getting the drop. That's another thing...the way NMs work right now is really tacky.

Players used to need to capitalize on a number of different features in order to successfully claim an NM (widescan, flee, provoke, charm, dia, stun, shadowbind, etc.). There were a number of different ways to give yourself the competitive edge when competing for claims, and that made the experience all the more "intense" (which further contributed to making NM camping, an enjoyable experience)

To each their own. Because I remember the /sh bitchfests. The MPKs. The cure bombs to try and steal claims. Trying to cause a Spike Flail. Waiting five+ hours to see no spawn. Seeing mobs pop claimed. Spending weeks/months/years doing the same mind numbing challenges battles with no progress toward any sort of personal goal.

Yeah, there was some thrill in actually getting the claim. But it was countered and dwarfed by the immense overall frustration caused by the rest of the experience.

I understand people enjoyed it. But the Players' Poll spoke volumes about how few players actually want that experience again or ever.