Page 14 of 14 FirstFirst ... 4 12 13 14
Results 131 to 137 of 137
  1. #131
    Player
    Shurrikhan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    12,870
    Character
    Tani Shirai
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphe2449 View Post
    ...
    Again, how many buttons would be added relative to what you'd be doing if no challenging dungeon content (or PvP, for that matter) existed. That those buttons see use in M+ does not mean they'd need to be uniquely added just because a game might now have challenging light party content; all but 2-5 per class also see significant use outside of M+.

    We don't stop using defensives in raids. We don't stop using immunities in raids. We don't stop using utility in raids. In certain raid encounters, even slows, stuns, roots, stuns, interrupts, and snares can all see use, too.

    A raid team in WoW will quite often take Druids, Warriors, Priests, Warlocks, and the like specifically for Leap of Faith, Demonic Gateway, Stampeding Roar, Rallying Cry, etc. Those skills' use are not limited to solely M+. Hell, there have been times when seemingly flavor skills like Mind Control allowed for tremendous advantage in fights or Mind Soothe in readying a council fight room, etc.

    Else, we may as well strip the likes of Rescue, Dark Missionary, Heart of Light, Shake it Off, Divine Veil, Passage of Arms, Troubadour, Shield Samba, Tactician, Magic Barrier, Nature's Minne, Warden's Paean, Everlasting Flight, Riddle of Earth, Shadeshift, Third Eye, Bloodbath, Second Wind, Nascent Flash, Intervention, and Oblation, The Blackest Night, and Heart of Corundom's ability to be used on others, etc., etc. They surely couldn't ever see use in any raid encounter after all, right?
    (1)

  2. #132
    Player

    Join Date
    May 2022
    Posts
    172
    Quote Originally Posted by Shurrikhan View Post
    relative to what you'd be doing if no challenging dungeon content (or PvP, for that matter) existed
    Well in that specific case you dont need any which just means dungeons are gonna remain boring dps spamfest, all that utility I mentioned would mainly be useful if dungeons ever became similar to WoW's m+, which I find superior to raids because in raids half of those abilities are usually useless because bosses are immune to roots, slows, ccs and adds dont always exist. (And people who know how to use all of that rather than the few a guide tells them to are quite ahead of others)

    Even then though, WoW does have more defensives with each DPS class usually have at least 2-4 defensives or big self heals/immunities that do work in raids, again though I assume the reason those dont exist in ff14 is to make the raid encounters more choreographed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shurrikhan View Post
    Else, we may as well strip the likes of Rescue, Dark Missionary, Heart of Light, Shake it Off, Divine Veil, Passage of Arms, Troubadour, Shield Samba, Tactician, Magic Barrier, Nature's Minne, Warden's Paean, Everlasting Flight, Riddle of Earth, Shadeshift, Third Eye, Bloodbath, Second Wind, Nascent Flash, Intervention, and Oblation, The Blackest Night, and Heart of Corundom's ability to be used on others, etc., etc. They surely couldn't ever see use in any raid encounter after all, right?
    I am not sure what you are trying to say, I am already saying that FF14 classes have very limited utility, and the fact that this list was made by combining multiple class AND role skills just goes to show it compared to WoW where one SINGLE dps class has 10-13 non dps abilities that can affect an encounter, if we combine all classes and roles it ll be pages of abilities.

    Plus the fact that ff14's utility is far weaker, second wind for example is a pretty pathetic heal compared to heal utility dps get in WoW that can almost heal more than half your health.
    (1)
    The tryhard elitist is the person who is going to finish their 5 pieces on this created to be beaten """"challenge"""" and then complaint that the baby, slower or less dexterous person are a problem which not only is toxic but indirectly implies that doing this basic created to be beaten task faster is an """achievement""" of """great skill""" which helps to falsely boost the elitist's self worth as that is their true motive, if challenge was truly their desire they would relish in the chance to do more than the rest.
    The healthy person on the other hand will either let people finish their part or assist them for their self worth does not depend on solving basic puzzles created to be beaten, aka as a video game.

  3. #133
    Player
    Shurrikhan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    12,870
    Character
    Tani Shirai
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphe2449 View Post
    ...
    Right, but my point is that we already have quite a few buttons that could easily be fit to those purposes. The number of discrete keys that would need to be added, then, are far less than you make out. Rather than some "8-13" additional keys just to have a chance at interesting and challenging light party content, we'd only a need a small handful.

    It is fine for some skills to be more valuable in environments capable of CC, for instance, than they are outside of it. A Kaiten-Yukikaze, for instance, could have a significant heavy+slow, a Kaiten-Oka a radial pushback, a Kaiten-Mangetsu a radial draw-in, etc., etc., all at the cost of one button that most SAMs already want back. That wouldn't change how Kaiten works in raids, unless raids themselves went back to having CC-able adds, but that's fine; it's okay (even if, imo, not preferable) for raids not to make use of every portion of our utility.

    And considered the "far weaker," to nearly the point of being so watered down as to be uninteresting, discrete utility we already have.

    Why have separate, individually flimsy, and thematically-incohesive skills in Second Wind and Bloodbath, over a fewer number of more powerful and/or integral, job-specific defensives with a more diverse use cases? What of the likes of Feint and Addle, the difference of which can almost never save a life nor GCD heal? We don't have to add new defensives atop the ones we have now, especially if the existing ones are uninteresting. We can improve upon the buttons we have, especially if we opened them up to job trait contexts by freeing those capacities from Role Actions.

    Also, at present, a huge amount of our "utility" is devoted to simply moving numbers from one player's addon bars to another to then be sorted back into place by a website despite there being gameplay effect from any raid buff used beyond whatever margin is worth holding a given action for. (And at present, because everything is so synced up anyways, there's also little to no decision-making or remotely complex planning involved in that anyways.) If they add no gameplay beyond the first to set a given window of opportunity, why are we removing more pivotal skills like Touch of Death or Kaiten just to support the next Dragon's Eye v2 or what have you?

    All that is why, again, I don't think it'd take more than some 2-5 skills more to be able to support a full range of interesting and challenging mechanics (i.e., across new or revamped light party content). If the devs were ever in a position to allow midcore players or those who want to be dependent on fewer other variables or want to spend less time just grouping up --despite still, yes, wanting to play in and as a team-- finding the space for those new (or, quite often, returned) capacities would be a comparatively miniscule effort.
    (0)

  4. #134
    Player
    Rolder50's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    1,615
    Character
    Alarasong Elaha
    World
    Siren
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 91
    Quote Originally Posted by Shurrikhan View Post
    A raid team in WoW will quite often take Druids, Warriors, Priests, Warlocks, and the like specifically for Leap of Faith, Demonic Gateway, Stampeding Roar, Rallying Cry, etc. Those skills' use are not limited to solely M+. Hell, there have been times when seemingly flavor skills like Mind Control allowed for tremendous advantage in fights or Mind Soothe in readying a council fight room, etc.
    Fun fact, any serious raid team will have at least one warlock, even if the class or player does no damage, purely because their utility is so good. Gateway, healthstones, soulstones, basically mandatory.
    (2)

  5. #135
    Player

    Join Date
    May 2022
    Posts
    172
    Quote Originally Posted by Shurrikhan View Post
    Right, but my point is that we already have quite a few buttons that could easily be fit to those purposes.
    True, if they choose to redesign them, second wind could definitely become a strong defensive skill if they boost its healing by a lot for example

    Though at least from the dev perspective I assume that will make their encounter design a lot more complicated which might be the reason they dont do it.

    But i would personally love to see utility/strong personal defensives/heals be a thing for dps classes as well as a lot of slows/ccs/stuns and the creation of actually interesting dungeon mob that require good use of utility to be efficiently at least.
    (0)
    The tryhard elitist is the person who is going to finish their 5 pieces on this created to be beaten """"challenge"""" and then complaint that the baby, slower or less dexterous person are a problem which not only is toxic but indirectly implies that doing this basic created to be beaten task faster is an """achievement""" of """great skill""" which helps to falsely boost the elitist's self worth as that is their true motive, if challenge was truly their desire they would relish in the chance to do more than the rest.
    The healthy person on the other hand will either let people finish their part or assist them for their self worth does not depend on solving basic puzzles created to be beaten, aka as a video game.

  6. #136
    Player
    Shurrikhan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    12,870
    Character
    Tani Shirai
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphe2449 View Post
    Though at least from the dev perspective I assume that will make their encounter design a lot more complicated which might be the reason they dont do it.
    Yeah, but it's come to about the extent of refusing to leave one's wheelchair because knee surgery would be "too much effort." They're losing out on a ton in the long run just to feign efficiency for the time being.

    Though, I suppose sunk cost fallacy likely plays a part, too. They spent so much time and effort shallowing out and homogenizing utility; surely it'd be "disrespectful" to their time if ever they were asked to un-gut those systems...
    (1)

  7. #137
    Player
    Teno's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    879
    Character
    Teno Gestalt
    World
    Moogle
    Main Class
    Sage Lv 100
    Been complaining about healers ever since I saw Dissipation in the trailer back in HW. But it was still bloody amazing to be a scholar, despite that terrible skill.

    Been complaining even more since ShB with the hope that it was groundwork for EW.

    And now, been complaining even even more since nothing was changed, even more bitter that Yoship spat in the face of healers ("nothing we could change about scholar, go play ultimate"). At least they created a healer with an amazing visual and lore identity, and an acknowledged dps to heal identity. But it's still the same homogenization and gameplay.
    (0)

Page 14 of 14 FirstFirst ... 4 12 13 14