WHM LB still charges too fast.

[Risvertasashi]

No because some LB's are much more powerful than others. The stronger ones should charge slower. WHM should have one of the slowest LB's.

It's not just the strength of LB, it's the strength of the whole kit. WHM would be garbage if the LB were significantly weakened, unless the rest of its kit were buffed up.

[Deceptus]

ast lb is pretty garbo... more often than not its wasted because you cant coordinate at all without chat or premades, it has a huge animation lock that could easily get you killed or make you miss the burst to finish ff someone, and to top it off it even becomes weaker over time as if it really was that strong to begin with. not to mention its extra useless in maps like cloud nine or the volcano where LOSing your own teammates is extremely easy

and it charges like 3x slowe than whm LB because......?

SCH is pretty bad as well, zero damage, doesn't reset CD's, the 4000 potency heal in consolation is ridiculously small. I don't think the Excogitation is actually working because I've popped the LB and died shortly after without getting the heal bump.

The main benefit of it is the single status nullification but the problem is with the insane amount of CC in this mode, that single status nullification is pretty pointless.

Hell the warrior LB stops you from using guard for 15 whole seconds. That's an eternity in PvP. Imagine if SCH or AST LB made you immune to all negative status effects for that long.

[Ransu]

It's not just the strength of LB, it's the strength of the whole kit. WHM would be garbage if the LB were significantly weakened, unless the rest of its kit were buffed up.

It can stay the way it is power wise. They just simply need to slow down its charge time. Getting beamed 4 times a match is not enjoyable.

[Tobias_Azuryon]

WHM would be garbage if the LB were significantly weakened

Yeah I mean imagine a healer with no other mitigation or CC abilities with a long CD LB that is only contextually good. Imagine such a thing existing in the game where the healer has little to no other tools and can't use a laser beam across the map to do damage and stun. What a strange alternate universe this would be if there were three other healers who all don't have this option or mitigation tool(s) to use and are still expected to counter the WHM's kit. What a terrifying place that would be. I shudder to think of what it would be like to have two healers just flat out not even have any crowd control capabilities. That would just be weeeeeeird.

It can stay the way it is power wise. They just simply need to slow down its charge time. Getting beamed 4 times a match is not enjoyable.

Only 4? Those are rookie numbers in this bracket you gotta pump those numbers up. Pretty much every big push for the crystal you can count on getting laser beamed. Crystal comes unlocked? Get ready for the laser. Team refreshes and makes a push? Laser. Their team wiped and comes back up, get ready for that checkpoint laser. Oh you're near their doorstep? Laser. It is one of the most singlehandedly greatest tools for crowd control + Crystal Control in the game and it's on a rapid cooldown with a class that can pop a cc on you that is incurable while buffing their own dps after doing so.

I'm still baffled why this is even still a debate.

[Risvertasashi]

Yeah I mean imagine a healer with no other mitigation or CC abilities with a long CD LB that is only contextually good. Imagine such a thing existing in the game where the healer has little to no other tools and can't use a laser beam across the map to do damage and stun. What a strange alternate universe this would be if there were three other healers who all don't have this option or mitigation tool(s) to use and are still expected to counter the WHM's kit. What a terrifying place that would be. I shudder to think of what it would be like to have two healers just flat out not even have any crowd control capabilities. That would just be weeeeeeird.

Your flaw is expecting other healers to compete with white mage.

White mage isn't good because it out-competes other healers. White mage is good because it can compete with the likes of dragoon, ninja, and red mage. And that's where other healers need to be too.

If you nerf WHM to the point where it can't compete with DPS, other healers don't fill in. DPS fill in, and healers just don't get played (well, outside of low ranks and casual matches, anyways).

It can stay the way it is power wise. They just simply need to slow down its charge time. Getting beamed 4 times a match is not enjoyable.

Slowing down the charge time is reducing power.

Which isn't to say SE can't do that. Just to stay competitive, something else would need to make up for it. Could be as simple as increasing Glare potency a bit.

[QooEr]

It's not just the strength of LB, it's the strength of the whole kit. WHM would be garbage if the LB were significantly weakened, unless the rest of its kit were buffed up.

whm is the only job that can purify other players, the only job with uncleansable silence, and the healer with the most straightforward and strong aoe heal. its strong even without lb. what are you smoking.

[Tobias_Azuryon]

Your flaw is expecting other healers to compete with white mage.

White mage isn't good because it out-competes other healers. White mage is good because it can compete with the likes of dragoon, ninja, and red mage. And that's where other healers need to be too.

If you nerf WHM to the point where it can't compete with DPS, other healers don't fill in. DPS fill in, and healers just don't get played (well, outside of low ranks and casual matches, anyways).

Slowing down the charge time is reducing power.

Which isn't to say SE can't do that. Just to stay competitive, something else would need to make up for it. Could be as simple as increasing Glare potency a bit.

Phrasing helps a lot there. While we've discussed this before on other threads, just saying "no WHM would suck and then no one would play healer because no dps!" isn't enough to communicate the point and comes across more as pearl clutching to the thing that keeps you relevant in combat.

That being said the tool you're defending is way too powerful. While yes buffing gcd damage or something could come into effect on the side, you have an instant 10k button every 15s, cc, protect, second purify, and cure. If you wanna give up any one of those for the LB then sure, but until then you're speaking about a theoretical rework where somehow the others get the same tools as WHM when WHM's kit is already unbalanced.

Saying "Well other healers aren't played as much because they don't have a spammable instant death beam every 60s" isn't the argument it's painted out to be. It points a spotlight on the imbalance that's there.

While yes, we'd love for other healers to get buffed, that's not what is being debated here. What's being debated here is the fact that for WHMs kit on top of its LB it's insane that it can literally turn an entire encounter in the press of a button and do it reliably every 60s if they're half awake.

[Ransu]

Yeah I mean imagine a healer with no other mitigation or CC abilities with a long CD LB that is only contextually good. Imagine such a thing existing in the game where the healer has little to no other tools and can't use a laser beam across the map to do damage and stun. What a strange alternate universe this would be if there were three other healers who all don't have this option or mitigation tool(s) to use and are still expected to counter the WHM's kit. What a terrifying place that would be. I shudder to think of what it would be like to have two healers just flat out not even have any crowd control capabilities. That would just be weeeeeeird.


Only 4? Those are rookie numbers in this bracket you gotta pump those numbers up. Pretty much every big push for the crystal you can count on getting laser beamed. Crystal comes unlocked? Get ready for the laser. Team refreshes and makes a push? Laser. Their team wiped and comes back up, get ready for that checkpoint laser. Oh you're near their doorstep? Laser. It is one of the most singlehandedly greatest tools for crowd control + Crystal Control in the game and it's on a rapid cooldown with a class that can pop a cc on you that is incurable while buffing their own dps after doing so.

I'm still baffled why this is even still a debate.

Most I've counted when paying attention was 7 LB's. And yes I've absolutely been beamed by a whm within seconds of the crystal unlocking. Its obnoxious how fast they charge the LB.

Slowing down the charge time is reducing power.

Which isn't to say SE can't do that. Just to stay competitive, something else would need to make up for it. Could be as simple as increasing Glare potency a bit.

WHM LB is one of the most stacked LB's in pvp utility wise next probably war in terms of impact in a match. Slowing down its charge time is not reducing power, its balancing a stacked LB that shouldn't be available as often as it is. I wouldn't have a problem with glare potency being upped a bit, but WHM LB is outright broken atm. Also, you still have poly....which is hands down the best CC in the game.

[Risvertasashi]

Phrasing helps a lot there. While we've discussed this before on other threads, just saying "no WHM would suck and then no one would play healer because no dps!" isn't enough to communicate the point and comes across more as pearl clutching to the thing that keeps you relevant in combat.

That being said the tool you're defending is way too powerful. While yes buffing gcd damage or something could come into effect on the side, you have an instant 10k button every 15s, cc, protect, second purify, and cure. If you wanna give up any one of those for the LB then sure, but until then you're speaking about a theoretical rework where somehow the others get the same tools as WHM when WHM's kit is already unbalanced.

Saying "Well other healers aren't played as much because they don't have a spammable instant death beam every 60s" isn't the argument it's painted out to be. It points a spotlight on the imbalance that's there.

While yes, we'd love for other healers to get buffed, that's not what is being debated here. What's being debated here is the fact that for WHMs kit on top of its LB it's insane that it can literally turn an entire encounter in the press of a button and do it reliably every 60s if they're half awake.

I don't agree that WHM is very imbalanced. It's competitive with top end DPS. As it needs to be to be relevant.

"WHM can do 10k every 15s! WHM can CC every 25s!" Yes if you shout all that in a vacuum you can make WHM sound broken. It's not so crazy when you look at what other jobs can do. I mean, 10k damage is only 2 GCD's worth and amounts to 20% (best case) or less of a target's health. We're not talking super hard hitting here.

It is just enough that, with a reliable team, it can synergize to make a positive difference.

It's also a tightrope. Remove even just a bit too much and WHM goes straight to the garbage bin. It's already pretty weak 1v1, it's strength comes entirely from party synergy.

[Tobias_Azuryon]

Remove even just a bit too much and WHM goes straight to the garbage bin. It's already pretty weak 1v1, it's strength comes entirely from party synergy.

WHM is broken. I don't have to make it "sound" broken at all. 10k damage may not "seem like a lot" but 10k damage when an opponent is already weakened on the move that you can make unable to cast any skill and buff with your LB to open up the opportunity to secure the kill sure is a lot. You're leaving out key points of the kit and how they all synergize and I can't tell sometimes if it's being willfully ignorant or just trying to avoid having your toy taken away.

You can shout it's not til you're blue in the face but the fact that they have an incurable silence on top of a second purify is already busted as hell, let alone the LB, AOE cure on an instant cast, 2 potent normal cures, and ability to buff ALL of it with said LB.

While I think there should be NO aoe stun and cc needs to be looked at extensively interms of balance, even if you took out polymorph you'd still have a kit that's better than other healers. Even SGE, which is the "big dps healer" only has one extra charge of pneuma of 10k damage vs healers afflatus, but they have to be in ganking distance to use it in the first place.

You're really trying to say with a straight face that having a 12k aoe heal on demand, 2 12k single target heals, an incurable silence, a second purify, a "press button to dps" skill, and an LB that buffs all of that and does a hella ton of damage in a mode where most people will be trying to control a point isn't broken?

That's not "sounding broken" that is broken. You think WHM sucks at 1v1? I can kite with WHM 100 times better than I can with Sage. And again, you can say "Well buff the other healers" all day long but that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about the insanity of one class having a ridiculously stacked kit while others get scraps and the LB is the cherry on top.

Maybe, just maybe, if you have to rely on the instant cast laser stun beam to be relevant to the matchup, maybe that's a problem instead of something that should be kept in the game?

And if that's the case, why is the argument "But no I NEEEEEEED my death beam that stuns everyone" and not "Hey yeah WHM is a bit unbalanced, I think every healer should hav ea second purify and/or a cc ability unique to its class?" You don't do a good job of defending the supposed perspective of "we need to lift other healers up" when your only contribution is "Noooo actually my class sucks please look away uwu"