Future Machinist Rework

[MikoRemi]

You must think outside the "damage" box. And that's the utility territory. Many good abilities had "meme" side effect but turned out to be extremely strong.

For the sake of simplicity, let's go with this rule:
Rook and Bishop deals same damage except Bishop is AoE with a fall off.

Example 1:
When the rook attacks, it also grants a strong 30s shield to the target's target.
When the bishop attacks, it grants a smaller 30s shield to allies around.

With this case, your fight knowledge will help the team survival.

Example 2:
Rook grants close allies bonus movement speed.
Bishop grants allies running towards it movement speed.

There are many cases where you would consider one or another.
Movement speed is strong, Expedient proved that.

You can give turrets many "bonus" effect, you will play your turret for damage, but no one would turn down extra bonuses, especially during every 60s windows.

Thought, In my fair opinion, if Bishop is back I would prefer if it was just a cooldown and Bishop would shield allies around it.

It is an angle to take yes, although it does become closer in support to the other Physical Ranged which could potentially make the damage output lower as a result. It certainly is an interesting path to take and doesn’t make things overly complicated admittedly although I am still trying to make sure Machinist comes as the big damage dealer…just a fair one.

This still does mean Bishop returns as the AoE turret though which was already the proposed idea. I mostly just kept the support effects off just in case but if it wouldn’t change much I’d take whatever buff is given since it’s welcome. Just have to be a little careful not to be overly strong in support and end up dunking on Bard and Dancer too hard. That’s my only real concern. If Bishop returned as a cooldown then the support effect would have to be considered for that instance too, although at that point it just sounds like an animation replacement for Tactician or Peloton.

[CKNovel]

It is an angle to take yes, although it does become closer in support to the other Physical Ranged which could potentially make the damage output lower as a result. It certainly is an interesting path to take and doesn’t make things overly complicated admittedly although I am still trying to make sure Machinist comes as the big damage dealer…just a fair one.

This still does mean Bishop returns as the AoE turret though which was already the proposed idea. I mostly just kept the support effects off just in case but if it wouldn’t change much I’d take whatever buff is given since it’s welcome. Just have to be a little careful not to be overly strong in support and end up dunking on Bard and Dancer too hard. That’s my only real concern. If Bishop returned as a cooldown then the support effect would have to be considered for that instance too, although at that point it just sounds like an animation replacement for Tactician or Peloton.

Dancer is supposed to be the big support and remains higher than MCH.
RDM also has stronger res and Magick Barrier on top of Addle but is higher than SMN.
Support = Less damage isn't true.

I think you missread me. In what examples I provided, Bishop and Rook have both the same DPS output on a single target.
Only their side bonuses changes, meaning in AoE situation you would always consider Bishop, but in Single Target situations, there is a small additional layer to think about.
Your DPS will not suffer if you make the bad decision but your team will appreciate it.

[MikoRemi]

Dancer is supposed to be the big support and remains higher than MCH.
RDM also has stronger res and Magick Barrier on top of Addle but is higher than SMN.
Support = Less damage isn't true.

I think you missread me. In what examples I provided, Bishop and Rook have both the same DPS output on a single target.
Only their side bonuses changes, meaning in AoE situation you would always consider Bishop, but in Single Target situations, there is a small additional layer to think about.
Your DPS will not suffer if you make the bad decision but your team will appreciate it.

And that's an issue with the balancing. Summoner and Dancer are supports yes but you have to account for how much simpler they are than the alternatives(namely Red Mage and Bard). The whacky balancing is a whole other issue versus the intent. Generally it's usually the simpler the class and the more support they have, the weaker they'll be. If it's a complex class with slight support(Reaper/Monk), it'll still be higher. If it's a high support and complex...well we saw that with Summoner going super high up in the charts and that wasn't exactly the intention given how it had to be changed over and over again. That's why the innate lack of support on Black Mage and Samurai is what is supposed to shoot either of them to the highest or second highest DPS, lack of support. Of course given how weird the balancing is between the jobs now...well it leads to this sort of thing where Red Mage is somehow quite powerful nowadays for what it is when it used to be the weakest in Stormblood because of how overly powerful the support kit was.

Oh I see. I suppose it could work but at that point that's changing the turrets and the upgrades entirely. I guess it wouldn't hurt too much though so I'll just say it's a side path that I don't mind if it goes that way. Whether it's keeping it simple like the old days but keeping the upgrade with the automatons in mind, or changing the turrets elsewhere, it's at least something.

[Kisshu]

A few things I would like to see changed for MCH making it less ping-punishing and a few other changes.

Hypercharge: Now grants 5 bullets instead of a timer.

Heat Blast: Now uses the bullets from Hypercharge. Instead of reducing cooldowns, it instead gives Aether Charged Ammunition at a rate of 1:1.
The Aether Charged Ammunition can be used for a free Gauss Round/Ricochet.
This change would mean you no longer have to weave inbetween each heat blast, but can still do it if you want to.

Wildfire: Duration 15 seconds, explodes after being hit 6 times, now does AoE damage.
Gives you more time to fully proc Wildfire and also makes it usefull during mob pulls in dungeons.

Crowned Collider: Gone. When the Automaton Queen uses Pile Bunker it grants the MCH the Targer Locked status. This lets the MCH use the Marksman's Spite attack (similar to the PVP LB).
As it is now, Crowned is the MCH's strongest attack bar Wilfire. But it's something that is done very passively by the mech. This change would instead let the MCH get the visual effect of the attack.

Flamethrower: Share cooldown with Hot Shot, grants battery, same AoE as Bioblaster and applies a DoT. Hitting a target affected by Bioblaster causes an extra explosion to trigger for additional damage.

[MikoRemi]

A few things I would like to see changed for MCH making it less ping-punishing and a few other changes.

Hypercharge: Now grants 5 bullets instead of a timer.

Heat Blast: Now uses the bullets from Hypercharge. Instead of reducing cooldowns, it instead gives Aether Charged Ammunition at a rate of 1:1.
The Aether Charged Ammunition can be used for a free Gauss Round/Ricochet.
This change would mean you no longer have to weave inbetween each heat blast, but can still do it if you want to.

Wildfire: Duration 15 seconds, explodes after being hit 6 times, now does AoE damage.
Gives you more time to fully proc Wildfire and also makes it usefull during mob pulls in dungeons.

Crowned Collider: Gone. When the Automaton Queen uses Pile Bunker it grants the MCH the Targer Locked status. This lets the MCH use the Marksman's Spite attack (similar to the PVP LB).
As it is now, Crowned is the MCH's strongest attack bar Wilfire. But it's something that is done very passively by the mech. This change would instead let the MCH get the visual effect of the attack.

Flamethrower: Share cooldown with Hot Shot, grants battery, same AoE as Bioblaster and applies a DoT. Hitting a target affected by Bioblaster causes an extra explosion to trigger for additional damage.

Definitely agree, no class should ever be punished for ping, only for bad play.

I had 4 charges on a 20 second timer or so for consistensy with other classes like Warrior's new Inner Release or Reaper's Enshroud gauge, so somewhat on the right idea.

Hmm, I could see something like that if it could stack for some time actually...like getting up to 4 free stacks maximum to unload at will on top of the cooldown, although I do at least like having 2 charges minimum to avoid overcapping.

My document also did that but instead of 6 times, I had it more like 3 or 4 so you don't have to use Heat Blast to trigger it within a reasonable time, and so that Blast Charge was still viable for use. Having AoE damage though is something we should already have so it's a little curious how we haven't had it yet...

I could see the Collider change, but I keep it to requiring 100 Battery solely to avoid having to spend at 50 or else it's nonoptimal, the 100 Battery for 1 charge makes it easy to use twice in a row at full power(2 max charges to unload with Marksman's after all) makes for some freedom. That's really it though.

I don't really want it to share with Hot Shot but to be a thing of its own personally. It is an interesting bit of interaction but the buff method or making it a stacking dot makes it more viable for single target and groups.

These ideas aren't ones I'm 100% opposed to though, if they did any of these that would already be a step in the right direction.

[Remarus]

A few things I would like to see changed for MCH making it less ping-punishing and a few other changes.

[...]

Crowned Collider: Gone. When the Automaton Queen uses Pile Bunker it grants the MCH the Targer Locked status. This lets the MCH use the Marksman's Spite attack (similar to the PVP LB).
As it is now, Crowned is the MCH's strongest attack bar Wilfire. But it's something that is done very passively by the mech. This change would instead let the MCH get the visual effect of the attack.

Not gonna touch on all of these, though I love the idea of WF having a longer duration and auto-proccing after 6 GCDs. I don't know that I'd enjoy ammo back in any form, I kinda like the way Heat Blast works compared to Stormblood MCH.

That all being said, I absolutely adore this idea for a Collider replacement. The AI for Queen is too buggy to be reliable and tying so much of our potency to it is poor design. Being able to control our burst like this would do wonders for playability, and I also agree with MikoRemi that we would need to force its use to 100 charge to make it balanceable.

Ideally, to fix Queen itself, I'd love it if pressing the summon button put a Debuff on the target called Magitech Focus or something and that designated what target our bot was attacking. We could then re-press the summon button to swap targets if needed, but otherwise it would keep its attacks on the Focused target.

[Kisshu]

I don't know that I'd enjoy ammo back in any form, I kinda like the way Heat Blast works compared to Stormblood MCH.

The idea of the ammo system would be to make it a stack system similar to what DRK got recently instead of a duration. It would make it a bit more forgiving in some situations such as boss 4 in the new 24-raid where it becomes untargetable for a brief second when doing the dash attack.
It would function just like the current version, 5 shots that only works with Heat Blast.

[Colt47]

I'm fine with machinist as is. Mostly just want to have charges instead of a timer for the overcharge for all the same reasons dark knight hated blood weapon before fix.

[seolhyun]

because of SE recent class changes, im here to say i do not want them to change the combo to blast charge in pve that sounds horrible. all mch needs is hypercharge stacks and probably utility because phys range black mage dps will never happen.

[MikoRemi]

because of SE recent class changes, im here to say i do not want them to change the combo to blast charge in pve that sounds horrible. all mch needs is hypercharge stacks and probably utility because phys range black mage dps will never happen.

In the document I have stated I wanted it slightly above Reaper so by default I never want Black Mage damage for MCH. Secondly, the change from the document would work well, if all they did was change the combo to Blast Charge and nothing else, that would be extremely dense.

Having a bit of interesting gameplay with utility and a better damage boost is what I’m aiming for.