On Venat's Role in the Story

[Rulakir]

Contrary to what some like to believe, the desire for many wasn't a 'villainous' Venat but merely a misguided one - which is perfectly understandable.

I wish they'd hadn't gone with the time loop. It's the fact that her actions were intentional and with knowledge of the future. They could've achieved the same effect by going the Greek tragedy route where in trying to avoid the 'prophecy' she inadvertently causes it to happen. It would've been heartbreaking and the likeability of her character would've remained in tact. Instead, we have Yoshi-P telling us his interpretation is that she purposely worked behind the scenes to maintain the time loop, which I can't even fathom. The fact that he also felt the need to communicate she wasn't a "bad guy" also indicates the way they wrote her character was questionable to more than just a handful of people on the EN lore forum.

[redheadturk]

Ok I’m done. You guys want a thread to circle jerk in that’s fine but I’m not arguing with all of you at once. I see no reason to treat the lore forum as anything but a graveyard at this point, and I see my mistake was getting pulled into this discussion again. By all means continue to complain and pretend I’m the one whose not interested in discussion, it’s all any of you seem interested in doing anymore.

I’ll take solace in that it seems Square and the writers are capable of introducing interesting and nuanced moral dilemmas while not writing in cheap twists like so many of you clamored for after SHB. I hope you all enjoy whatever it is you enjoy doing nowadays.

If you call SE trying to convince the ones of their playerbase that haven't downed the Venat Koolaid by the gallon and wanted a split timeline [there are more than you think] that Genocide is cool "interesting and nuanced writing" you're the problem.

[EaraGrace]

If you call SE trying to convince the ones of their playerbase that haven't downed the Venat Koolaid by the gallon and wanted a split timeline [there are more than you think] that Genocide is cool "interesting and nuanced writing" you're the problem.

Oooo suddenly I’m a “problem.” Once again, enjoy complaining.

[Theodric]

The fact that he also felt the need to communicate she wasn't a "bad guy" also indicates the way they wrote her character was questionable to more than just a handful of people on the EN lore forum.

Yeah, that was pretty telling. The game's community is also notorious for lashing out and attacking anyone for even mild feedback and that goes for pretty much any aspect of the game even if we put the story to one side.

The climate has, however, changed significantly as of Endwalker since even if the divisive nature of the story wasn't enough to rock the boat in itself the arguably tone deaf comments directing healers to go and play ultimate, the state of the long awaited Hrothgar hairstyles and the recent housing lottery scandal have caused even some formerly devout defenders to start questioning the development team more actively.

[Kozh]

Do you disagree?

Short answer: I disagree.
Lomg answer: I think I understand now why we have this argument. Basically, we have different interpretation of what "benefit" is for us. For me, when I do something to achieve my personal goal, or to act according to my belief, regardless of what happens to me, those actions already benefit me. Even more so if it resulted in a situation that I intended.

Using the donor example: let's say that I kill a person and harvest their organ to save my friend. I succeed and my friend is now alright. However, I was caught by the police and sentenced to death. Even though I won't live to see my friend living their life, what I did already benefited me, because saving my friend is my goal.

So yeah, from my perspective, what the Ironworks did benefit them, because it's their goal to "save the world", even though they don't have to do that. Even if they have to trample other people's lives by risking them.

Ok she told them. Now what? They still need to reduce their aetheric density and seal away Zodiark.

If a garlean scientist could make technology to extract soul, make artificial echo, it's cert far from impossible for the Ancients to research on how to sunder someone in an controlled manner and environment.

Regardless, as yoshi-p himself noted in the interview, alphinaud response to emet selch in ShB is also applied to Venat as well. "what's your right to decide the fate of the world by yourself?".

Sundering may be needed, but the problem here is venat not telling anyone about the REAL problem, not even about the Plenty. How do you expect people to change if they aren't aware of the question/problem? Venat is blessed by the knowledge of both the question (meteion revelation) and the answer (the WoL's tale of loss and triumph), yet she kept all of it to herself. Even her followers doesn't know about the true extent of her plan, judging by the dialogue on anamnesis anyder.

And Yoshi P has already said the others moons have something up with them. We just don't know whats going on there, and as it stands our only source was the Watcher, who is obviously limited in what he knows.

Because it has to be an equivalent soul? Otherwise Zodiark would be massively weakened in a way the Sundering did not?

No, there's never any implication of that. It's a matter of quantity, since everything boil down to whether it's enough aether or not. And soul is aether basically.

Have it crossed your mind that the three unsundered were backed into the corner due to the sundering itself? Now with incomplete souls, they might have to sacrifice everything and everyone on the Source just to bring back their friends again, unlike the original plan where they decided to sacrifice "a portion of living energy" to Zodiark.

[Kozh]

The Lykaons had souls, and the only one who wept for them was Hermes.

Just because I don't weep for every mice I killed, doesn't mean I don't care about them. The fact they have funeral ritual and feels sad about the creatures passing told us enough.

There is no basis that the Ancients were motivated by belief that they needed to be their when the calamity returns. The only ones who have stated that [I]were the ones who Sundered the world. There's zero indication that they were acting out of anything but a desire to see their brethren returned.

Yes there is? Hythlodaeus dialogue after that, venat's faction dialogue on anamnesis anyder, the short story from tales of the shadows. They both explicitly said that they're uncertain and worried about the future of the star, thus they decided to bring back their brethren to resume stewardship. Yes, they may want for their loved ones to return because they're sad, but it's not the whole purpose either.

I disagree. Now that they want for nothing, the former Sundered would do exactly as the Ancients did.

So Venat only delay the inevitable?

So you'd kill an innocent just to save one other? Why does one get to live while the other doesn't?

Because that one live is someone I deeply cherished and loved, while the other is a stranger.

I'm saying if you truly it right for one to do as you say, then why aren't you actively helping improve the world by saving those five?

Because none of this is real?? This is just a hypothetical question you asked after all??? And what does saving five people have to do with improving the world? What's the correlation??

She did the right thing.

By whose perspective? Certainly not from her victims. Even from the sundered it's a grey area.

[CrownySuccubus]

Because that one live is someone I deeply cherished and loved, while the other is a stranger.

This one I don't agree with. I'm not trading my pain for someone else's.

"I'm sad, so let me commit a crime to make myself less sad" isn't behavior I can condone. I can understand it, but not condone it.

[Kozh]

This one I don't agree with. I'm not trading my pain for someone else's.

"I'm sad, so let me commit a crime to make myself less sad" isn't behavior I can condone. I can understand it, but not condone it.

Oh don't worry, I fully know it's a dick move. But from my perspective, it's the more "right" one. Well, subjective, that's all I can say.

[SannaR]

Why are we still trying to make more glue? This section is starting to sound like the general section. You know where everyone has to write out every little nuance just so we can try and avoid any "um well you didn't mention this exact tiny sand gain of information or idea. So how could I extrapolate what exactly it is you meant?" bullocks. I don't think many if not most of those who love Venat think her going along with Herme's stupid assed test parameters was the brightest of ideas. Or that those who are feeling that those of us who still like her aren't capable of separating our like of her from any dislike of her actions. I mean I love Emet-Selch but I am fully capable of looking at his actions and going "Wow, dude. Just no man." while still loving how complex of a character he is and how at least the English and Japanese VAs 100% nailed it.

The Thing is we don't have enough information to know what exactly would happen if at any time Venat went and thought "Screw this! So what if I somehow create a paradox." and told people even after Zodiark was summoned. We also don't know if at any point in time if she weighed all of her available options or after her initial weighing of options back on Elpis she chose to stick to her guns. And seeing just how one what if scenario ended up being a monkey's paw type deal with how the AU timeline of DRU/DSU plays out I don't have much confidence that the devs wouldn't take a similar route. We barely know how most of the convocation thinks let alone what type of person they were/are. We don't even get a sentence out of many of the others who were "killed" off screen. All we know really about Nabrialis and Iygthorm is they were team Zodiark and agreed with Lahabreha's idea of we needed to attempt another rejoining two weeks ago. Especially since we can all assume part of the reason why Iygthorm is like that is to make up for being the one who got the blame for creating the void.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Why are we still trying to make more glue? This section is starting to sound like the general section. You know where everyone has to write out every little nuance just so we can try and avoid any "um well you didn't mention this exact tiny sand gain of information or idea. So how could I extrapolate what exactly it is you meant?" bullocks. I don't think many if not most of those who love Venat think her going along with Herme's stupid assed test parameters was the brightest of ideas. Or that those who are feeling that those of us who still like her aren't capable of separating our like of her from any dislike of her actions. I mean I love Emet-Selch but I am fully capable of looking at his actions and going "Wow, dude. Just no man." while still loving how complex of a character he is and how at least the English and Japanese VAs 100% nailed it.

The Thing is we don't have enough information to know what exactly would happen if at any time Venat went and thought "Screw this! So what if I somehow create a paradox." and told people even after Zodiark was summoned. We also don't know if at any point in time if she weighed all of her available options or after her initial weighing of options back on Elpis she chose to stick to her guns. And seeing just how one what if scenario ended up being a monkey's paw type deal with how the AU timeline of DRU/DSU plays out I don't have much confidence that the devs wouldn't take a similar route. We barely know how most of the convocation thinks let alone what type of person they were/are. We don't even get a sentence out of many of the others who were "killed" off screen. All we know really about Nabrialis and Iygthorm is they were team Zodiark and agreed with Lahabreha's idea of we needed to attempt another rejoining two weeks ago. Especially since we can all assume part of the reason why Iygthorm is like that is to make up for being the one who got the blame for creating the void.

As far as other members of the convocation go, we have at least seen their memory crystals, of which a lot of them saying things like “We must not give in to despair,” and “this is right.” As far as an AU thing goes, i think the reason many call out the writers for not giving one to the ancients is they were absolutely fine with giving on to ironworks. Ironworks was willing to sacrifice their entire timeline to bring back the WoL, a plan they didn’t even know would work yet that’s okay. But somehow an alternate timeline for the ancients just wouldn’t work because horrible excuse X Y Z.