On Venat's Role in the Story

[SannaR]

As far as other members of the convocation go, we have at least seen their memory crystals, of which a lot of them saying things like “We must not give in to despair,” and “this is right.” As far as an AU thing goes, i think the reason many call out the writers for not giving one to the ancients is they were absolutely fine with giving on to ironworks. Ironworks was willing to sacrifice their entire timeline to bring back the WoL, a plan they didn’t even know would work yet that’s okay. But somehow an alternate timeline for the ancients just wouldn’t work because horrible excuse X Y Z.

And somehow those memory crystals are enough to tell us how they'd of reacted to being told about Dynamis and that a secret project done by then Fandaniel is the whole reason why Zodiark was needed to happen in the first place? And that they now have to come up with a plan to devise a way to not even just manipulate an energy source (who most didn't even know about due to not having a need to) that those few who did know of its existence barely had even the most basic cursory understanding of how it works in order to win a fight against a being that's made from the stuff. Taking Emet's reaction to us telling him about the future as the middle of the road which isn't all that good considering even as we're feeling Kitis says he still doesn't believe us. Who's to say how much better the others would take the news?

Even Mr. Sunny personality Hythlodaeus went "Thal's Balls that's some depressing and bleak stuff that I'm having trouble accepting." Which sure is their initial reaction who again I point out doesn't agree with said blind scientific test, but gives points to trying to make the parameters of it be as fair as it can be. Sure, we can go with well who's to say if they get told and the initial shock of not only what they just went through and the learning of why has worn off that they couldn't come up with some kind of plan. Yet if anything from FF XIII has taught me it's that more often then not is that people who get dropped such a devastating knowledge just instantly turtle. As in that game just the act of being made a L'Cie ends up turning that person instantly into a Cie'th. I.E a hideous monster that attacks anyone. If you don't know what Cie'th looks like it's the next to last boss in The Twinning. The other way a l' Cie turns into a Cie'th is by failing the task given to them by the Fal' Cie (mini God like beings). Which are very broad and highly subjective as to what completing said task means or even is.

Sorry for the tangent, but we both know that just because the convocation is to be made up of people who have a high willpower stat and dumped a butt-load into their Wisdom and intelligence stats then the rest of the population that the type of information that Venat chose to withhold from them ontop of the calamity they just went through would and could be the thing that breaks their psyche. It's like what Alisaie says to Metieon. Just because Emet, Hermes, Venat and Hythlodaeus don't have a mental breakdown doesn't mean none of the rest of the convocation or the general populace wouldn't.

[Veloran]

Sorry for the tangent, but we both know that just because the convocation is to be made up of people who have a high willpower stat and dumped a butt-load into their Wisdom and intelligence stats then the rest of the population that the type of information that Venat chose to withhold from them ontop of the calamity they just went through would and could be the thing that breaks their psyche. It's like what Alisaie says to Metieon. Just because Emet, Hermes, Venat and Hythlodaeus don't have a mental breakdown doesn't mean none of the rest of the convocation or the general populace wouldn't.

Venat specifically says that most of the Ancient population would be able to cope with the knowledge of a dead, meaningless universe.

[KizuyaKatogami]

And somehow those memory crystals are enough to tell us how they'd of reacted to being told about Dynamis and that a secret project done by then Fandaniel is the whole reason why Zodiark was needed to happen in the first place? And that they now have to come up with a plan to devise a way to not even just manipulate an energy source (who most didn't even know about due to not having a need to) that those few who did know of its existence barely had even the most basic cursory understanding of how it works in order to win a fight against a being that's made from the stuff. Taking Emet's reaction to us telling him about the future as the middle of the road which isn't all that good considering even as we're feeling Kitis says he still doesn't believe us. Who's to say how much better the others would take the news?

Even Mr. Sunny personality Hythlodaeus went "Thal's Balls that's some depressing and bleak stuff that I'm having trouble accepting." Which sure is their initial reaction who again I point out doesn't agree with said blind scientific test, but gives points to trying to make the parameters of it be as fair as it can be. Sure, we can go with well who's to say if they get told and the initial shock of not only what they just went through and the learning of why has worn off that they couldn't come up with some kind of plan. Yet if anything from FF XIII has taught me it's that more often then not is that people who get dropped such a devastating knowledge just instantly turtle. As in that game just the act of being made a L'Cie ends up turning that person instantly into a Cie'th. I.E a hideous monster that attacks anyone. If you don't know what Cie'th looks like it's the next to last boss in The Twinning. The other way a l' Cie turns into a Cie'th is by failing the task given to them by the Fal' Cie (mini God like beings). Which are very broad and highly subjective as to what completing said task means or even is.

Sorry for the tangent, but we both know that just because the convocation is to be made up of people who have a high willpower stat and dumped a butt-load into their Wisdom and intelligence stats then the rest of the population that the type of information that Venat chose to withhold from them ontop of the calamity they just went through would and could be the thing that breaks their psyche. It's like what Alisaie says to Metieon. Just because Emet, Hermes, Venat and Hythlodaeus don't have a mental breakdown doesn't mean none of the rest of the convocation or the general populace wouldn't.

^ What Veloran said but also…looking at some of the memory stones Mitron’s very clearly says we must not give in to despair. Dunno about you but that doesn’t sound very damning. It seemed they knew they had to persevere.

[Lyth]

Venat specifically says that most of the Ancient population would be able to cope with the knowledge of a dead, meaningless universe.

Would you mind citing that specific quote?

[EaraGrace]

Would you mind citing that specific quote?

She said the exact opposite.

Venat: In spite of this, we cannot let the report that set this calamity in motion become common knowledge. Where the masses to learn the fates of the other stars, I fear the situation would spiral out of our control.

^ What Veloran said but also…looking at some of the memory stones Mitron’s very clearly says we must not give in to despair. Dunno about you but that doesn’t sound very damning. It seemed they knew they had to persevere.

Ironically while that phrase comes closest to representing a will that could stand against despair, the last line in it is exactly what made Zodiark such a problem moving forward. Specifically

Mitron: …if we but hold fast to hope, we may yet find a path to salvation.

This desire would come to define Zodiark and in so doing make him answer any call for salvation, preventing anyone from having to face despair and thus preventing them from gaining the strength to defeat Meteion.

[KizuyaKatogami]

She said the exact opposite.

NPC_Dialog [2021-12-18 23:00:19+00:00] Venat: Your tale led us here, , so 'tis only right that you lead us now. No matter what lies ahead, we will win through to Hermes and Meteion.
NPC_Dialog [2021-12-18 23:00:22+00:00] Venat: And then we will face the future together!
NPC_Dialog [2021-12-18 23:01:21+00:00] Venat: Bleak as the contents of Meteion's report might be, many could hear it and remain content with their lives.
NPC_Dialog [2021-12-18 23:01:28+00:00] Venat: But not Hermes. For him, the veneer of perfection has long been cracked, and it was to the distant heavens he looked for the means to repair it.

Guess it’s just another example of her being a bit of a psycho.

[EaraGrace]

NPC_Dialog [2021-12-18 23:00:19+00:00] Venat: Your tale led us here, Caelum, so 'tis only right that you lead us now. No matter what lies ahead, we will win through to Hermes and Meteion.
NPC_Dialog [2021-12-18 23:00:22+00:00] Venat: And then we will face the future together!
NPC_Dialog [2021-12-18 23:01:21+00:00] Venat: Bleak as the contents of Meteion's report might be, many could hear it and remain content with their lives.
NPC_Dialog [2021-12-18 23:01:28+00:00] Venat: But not Hermes. For him, the veneer of perfection has long been cracked, and it was to the distant heavens he looked for the means to repair it.

Guess it’s just another example of her being a bit of a psycho.

You don’t think Meteions escape might have something to do with that or are we just gonna ignore the situation changed?

I mean it’s the difference between “the other stars are dead” and “the other stars are dead and a being with the ability to wield energy you cannot even see or stop is coming to destroy you because of it.” She makes that clear.

[CrownySuccubus]

You don’t think Meteions escape might have something to do with that or are we just gonna ignore the situation changed?

I mean it’s the difference between “the other stars are dead” and “the other stars are dead and a being with the ability to wield energy you cannot even see or stop is coming to destroy you because of it.” She makes that clear.

I'm sorry, but you're moving the goalposts. Venat was specifically talking about the report, not the Song of Oblivion. That's clear even in what YOU quoted.

Venat: In spite of this, we cannot let the report that set this calamity in motion become common knowledge. Where the masses to learn the fates of the other stars, I fear the situation would spiral out of our control.

[Lyth]

No, Eara is correct. The situation has changed.

The statement that Veloran misquoted was from Lv. 87 'Caging the Messenger' as optional dialogue as you form your party to enter Ktsis Hyperboreia.

'Bleak as the contents of Meteion's report might be, many could hear it and remain content with their lives.
But not Hermes. For him, the veneer of perfection has long been cracked, and it was to the distant heavens he looked for the means to repair it.
I understand his anguish after a fashion─my own refusal to return is in opposition to the world's established order. Yet for me, the imperfections only enhance the fragile beauty of our star. I will fight to see it delivered from destruction, warts and all.'

All that Venat's saying is that specifically for Hermes, Meteion's nihilistic answer is a tipping point. If you look at her earlier thoughts on the subject, her main worry is that Hermes may well be the trigger event that ended up setting the Final Days in motion. Consider an earlier quote of hers, from Lv. 87 'Follow, Wander, Stumble, Listen':

'In the Final Days, aether is twisted by the invasion of dynamis from beyond the star, its progress intensified by feelings of fear and despair and anguish...
Nay, I like not the picture which emerges with these latest pieces.'

And the quote that follows when Hermes escapes with Meteion, at the start of Lv. 87 'Caging the Messenger':

'If all Hermes means to do is listen to Meteion's report, then it is his right to do so.
But once he receives the answers to his question, what then? The fate of the world may very well hinge upon the choice he makes in that moment...and we must be there when he makes it.'

Now if you want to look at the quote that Eara referenced, that actually happens after Ktisis in the first cutscene after Lv. 87 'Thou must Live Die and Know':

'With Meteion free to pursue her designs, 'tis only a matter of time until the Final Days are upon us. We must be ready. From fortifying our defenses to securing our escape, there is much to be done. In spite of this, we cannot allow the report that set this calamity in motion to become common knowledge. Were the masses to learn the fates of the other stars, I fear the situation would spiral out of our control. I must carefully consider who can be trusted, and bring them into the fold. Ordinarily, I wouldn't hesitate to call upon the Fourteen. However, it was the desire for a fair determination that drove Hermes to attempt to erase our memories; were he made aware of his actions, there is no telling whether he would remain a friend or become a foe.'

There are two issues on the table now. One, if the report gets out, Hermes' response is unpredictable. Perhaps it triggers the memories that were erased on Kairos. Perhaps he gives in to despair in the middle of the Final Days. Second, there are plenty of people who would still be effected by the news, and the Final Days is a bad time for them to go through an existential crisis.

This is why I asked for the exact citation. If you try to do it just from memory, the meaning gets distorted by your reaction to them. And people also leave out critical parts that make you lose context.

[Veloran]

I mean it’s the difference between “the other stars are dead” and “the other stars are dead and a being with the ability to wield energy you cannot even see or stop is coming to destroy you because of it.” She makes that clear.

This raises a storytelling problem I have with Meteion, being that a problem you yourself create cannot ever be so terrifying as a problem you have no context for or knowledge of. If Meteion was just some force out in the universe that had been killing stars with their own despair for eons and nobody had ever survived, that is a situation worth panicking over. But with the Meteion we have, it's one guy's spare-time science project that got out of hand. Any problem that you get yourself into, you should be able to get yourself out of, such a simple notion is far more reassuring than the onset of an invisible apocalypse one can't even begin to understand. This should go doubly true for the Ancients, who are all about reason and scientific thinking.

All that Venat's saying is that specifically for Hermes, Meteion's nihilistic answer is a tipping point.

She very clearly states that for most of the Ancients, they could continue living even knowing Meteion's report. This was not a statement limited only to Hermes.

There are two issues on the table now. One, if the report gets out, Hermes' response is unpredictable.

If you're going to suggest I misquoted something, you should avoid doing the same. Venat does not say that if Meteion's report becomes known, his loyalty would be threatened. What she says is that if he learns of his own choices and actions, he it's possible that he might become an enemy.

Why is this distinction important? Because Hermes didn't simply hear Meteion's report and then decide that mankind should be wiped out. It was Meteion that made that choice, she who determined that because there was no happiness or reason for living, she would try to end all life. Hermes was supporting her ability to determine for herself, but himself still chose to oppose her and work on behalf of humanity's survival.

Perhaps it triggers the memories that were erased on Kairos.

It should go without saying that we have no evidence for any such thing being a thing.

Perhaps he gives in to despair in the middle of the Final Days. Second, there are plenty of people who would still be effected by the news, and the Final Days is a bad time for them to go through an existential crisis.

An issue here is that we have no idea when the Final Days actually started. It could have been next week, it could have been five thousand years later. Either way, I don't think offering people the ability to acclimate and digest knowledge is a bad principle, especially in comparison to throwing them into the middle of a crisis that they don't understand whatsoever and have no context for.