On Venat's Role in the Story

[Theodric]

Yeah, I don't doubt there's so little going on in the story right now that certain posters need to champion the same stale antics that have been front and centre for a while now. Each to their own, I suppose. I've seen how it worked out for WoW to neglect the broader cast in favour of constantly pushing Sylvanas, Anduin and Jaina at almost every turn.

[Skyborne]

Let's be honest, people who posted about wanting evil moustache-twirling Hydaelyn in the days of Shadowbringers -- probably the same that insisted on that anthill metaphor for the Sundered -- are probably all on the Venat train now, since at the end of the day, it seems like they are not particularly attached to any story elements or characters and basically just want to feel they are on the current 'winning team' of a video game story.

I never particularly wanted anything like that, but then... well... let's just say I don't find it very nuanced to have the equivalent of one of those MS Paint comics where the calm rational 'correct' person lectures a silly flailing crying angry generic stand-in that seems to contradict the motives that the same people had in Shadowbringers. Her role in the story was to be a device for why the game world exists in its current state, anyway.

I will always think what I want about these characters... and, well, if we're going by the 'majority', look no further than #1 Tumblr Sexyman Of Genocide two expansions in a row. (please, Squeenix, don't milk him to death too)

Yeah, there is no discussion to be had here. You just end up being made fun of, accused of being biased and not understanding lore, and then gaslit to believe that you are the one that's the issue who is unable to partake in a reasonable discussion.

I had a chuckle when I went to go reread the OP and the first few pages and you have Mikko immediately flying out of the gate with "bruh you're just mad at videogames and don't understand the story lol".

[KariTheFox]

Love how when you’ve lost an argument you resort to trying to get a rise out of specific people lol.

I'm not trying to win or lose an argument. I have no interest in arguing with people critically unable to engage with the themes of a text who have spent the past six months seething about how hydaelyn bad.

Whatever, she is bad. You win the argument. Do whatever you want with that victory.

[redheadturk]

As someone who has been posting around here for almost a decade, I'm not going to stand for what is a rather deceptive attempt at rewriting history. It's something I've commented on many times already, but this previous post of mine sums up my thoughts on the subject quite nicely:

^this. I have been called a Nazi apologist more than once for my love of antagonists by people just like EaraGrace so you will forgive me if I seem rather dismissive of her opinions of what is moral and right.

[KizuyaKatogami]

I'm not trying to win or lose an argument. I have no interest in arguing with people critically unable to engage with the themes of a text who have spent the past six months seething about how hydaelyn bad.

Whatever, she is bad. You win the argument. Do whatever you want with that victory.

It’s more like people refusing to see what they’ve outright explained to us numerous times and playing oblivious while trying to promote headcanon as fact.

[Theodric]

I'm not trying to win or lose an argument. I have no interest in arguing with people critically unable to engage with the themes of a text who have spent the past six months seething about how hydaelyn bad.

Whatever, she is bad. You win the argument. Do whatever you want with that victory.

I think that's a rather disingenuous take. For starters, the developers themselves have repeatedly been evasive in regards to what the supposed 'themes' actually consist of. Even where they've elaborated upon them, they're applied so inconsistently that it becomes a parody of itself in the eyes of many. There's a good reason the phrase 'it's okay when we do it' has become so common as of late.

As for Hydaelyn being 'bad' that's more to do with the story's decision to strip away the agency from her completely through the use of stacking numerous stale tropes atop one another in order to try and desperately pretend as if genocide is suddenly acceptable so long as a pretty woman is the one doing it. The story and the writers can gaslight about her intentions all they so wish, even going so far as to wrap up the act of genocide in fluffy language - though the audience aren't under any obligation to like or cheer her on.

Nobody is even telling you not to like Hydaelyn. They simply don't agree with your take, or whatever lazy caricatures the writers lean on in order to push a specific resolution to the story.

There's nothing particularly controversial about declaring acts of genocide to not be a good thing. Nobody is obligated to like or dislike specific characters for that matter.

[Rulakir]

^this. I have been called a Nazi apologist more than once for my love of antagonists by people just like EaraGrace so you will forgive me if I seem rather dismissive of her opinions of what is moral and right.

This is why I'm dreading the next arc being a "conflict of values". As we've seen, those vary by individual.

[EaraGrace]

On the bright side, at the end of the day, the writers of FFXIV are going to keep writing the compelling and strong stories that they are, that are very popular with the majority of the people who play the game. And no amount of malding from the same dozen or so people on the lore forums is going to change that.

I see only true words here.

Let's be honest, people who posted about wanting evil moustache-twirling Hydaelyn in the days of Shadowbringers -- probably the same that insisted on that anthill metaphor for the Sundered -- are probably all on the Venat train now, since at the end of the day, it seems like they are not particularly attached to any story elements or characters and basically just want to feel they are on the current 'winning team' of a video game story.

Those who wanted a villainous turn are in the thread rn and let me say they aren’t Venat stans. You can ask them how they felt.

[Kozh]

This is why I'm dreading the next arc being a "conflict of values". As we've seen, those vary by individual.

Same. "conflict of values" only works when the writer doesn't have bias for one side, or at least as unbiased as they can be. It's a hard thing to pull of, and honestly, I doubt they're able to.

[Theodric]

This is why I'm dreading the next arc being a "conflict of values". As we've seen, those vary by individual.

I'd only really have faith if they managed to get the guy who wrote ARR and HW back or they managed to get Matsuno to work on the MSQ's full time. The former is a higher possibility than the latter, I suppose.

Contrary to what some like to believe, the desire for many wasn't a 'villainous' Venat but merely a misguided one - which is perfectly understandable. Forcing people to just roll over and accept genocide is a pretty weird stance for any story to take, so I can't imagine what sort of baggage a 'conflict of values' would try to force on the player and player character.

Worse yet, it'll probably be more 'rules for thee but not for me' at play where the protagonists barely risk breaking a nail, conveniently get all the handy plot devices to avoid getting their hands dirty and then the antagonists will probably be more sympathetic, have higher stakes and will probably stand to lose everything because the game loves to have already tormented characters like Emet and Yotsuyu take such a trajectory.