A Toxic Culture in XIV

[Midareyukki]

Yeah that attitude definitely isn't good if someone's ineptitude is causing the entire group to wipe. That person at least should be receptive to other party member's tips and advice.

That reminds me of last year's raiding experience. First time I had ever raided for real, got into an FC that really wanted to have a static. Issue was that we had a Black Mage who very much had just just finished Shadowbringers and wanted to get into raiding ASAP without knowing the basics or understanding how mechanics are done. And whenever we explained mechanics to her, we would be patient and tell her ways to go around the mechanics. Stuff like slidecasting, or where to position herself, who to teleport to. Even going so far as to ask if maybe she wouldn't feel more at ease on a less technical job like Red Mage at the time.

Not only would she cry and lash out whenever we did it, she'd then blame us for putting her on the spot. When really we were just trying to help. Naturally we figured some people were being a bit brutish so we reconsidered our approach a dozen times, but it never really helped. It didn't matter that it ended up with some of us catering to her and having to push themselves to compensate when she herself as a Black Mage did worse than our White Mage. Whenever we asked her to then put in the effort, all hell would break loose. She'd then hide behind disorders, some of which I shared, with little regard for improvement or trying to find a way to cope. I myself struggle with directional mechanics, and I am colourblind. This raid tier is confusing as hell the first few times, but thankfuly Square Enix puts in stuff so people don't rely on colour to execute mechanics. When finally I had enough of it and left, it caused such a rupture that she and those who sheltered her would be against listening to us who didn't, or even being in the same voice call as us.

I understand being new. We all were. And I understand anxiety or having disorders. But when someone tries to help you and tell you "Okay, it's clear you're struggling with this. Do you need help? You can do XYZ and it might be more fluid." or "Okay, this isn't working out, you need to try to do more of this and less of that", and your response is to lash out and ignore them? That's entirely on you. It's not the anxiety, it's not the disorder, it's not even being new. You can try, and it might fail, but you at least tried and people might just see that you tried and offer better insight. Otherwise you are just wasting everyone's time. Your time and that of 7 other people.

[kpxmanifesto]

snip

Yeah that seems pretty frustrating to deal with a player like that, and I would've left that FC too. It looks like the FC members who supported her were either too attached to her or didn't care enough about progging to have her benched. What else is there to do but find a new FC at that point.

[Iscah]

Go to ANYONE who has never played FF14 before and try to get them to play, but make sure to say "You have to go through 150-200 hours of story first before you're able to play the end-game. Sure, you can go and do other things, but, for levelling your first class/job, they are meaningless", see how many people flock to the game. Yes, there might be a few, but, the majority of new players who have quit has been because of the MSQ itself. Doesn't that tell you how bad it is for new players?

If you're selling it to them that way, then you're trying to scare them off it.

What I would say is that it's effectively a series of five 40-50 hour JRPGs, each with a main plot and then a long post-credits storyline with bonus dungeons and fights to unlock. And I'd be telling them there's no rush to get through it, because getting to the end isn't any better than spending time along the way.

And I'm not telling them that side stuff is meaningless, because I'll be telling then to do it as part of the story – and while it will get you overlevelled on a single job, I'll be recommending that they level at least two jobs, not necessarily from the start but once they can unlock the newer ones that unlock at 50/60/70.

You're equating playing all of FFXIV to just playing FFX alone, but the real equation is comparing just ARR to FFX or just Heavensward to FFX – or the other way around, playing all of FFXIV is equivalent to playing FFX, FFX-2 and a hypothetical further three games up to FFX-5. It's just that XIV puts titles on its sequels instead of numbers.

[Insertusernamehere]

If you're selling it to them that way, then you're trying to scare them off it.

What I would say is that it's effectively a series of five 40-50 hour JRPGs, each with a main plot and then a long post-credits storyline with bonus dungeons and fights to unlock. And I'd be telling them there's no rush to get through it, because getting to the end isn't any better than spending time along the way.

And I'm not telling them that side stuff is meaningless, because I'll be telling then to do it as part of the story – and while it will get you overlevelled on a single job, I'll be recommending that they level at least two jobs, not necessarily from the start but once they can unlock the newer ones that unlock at 50/60/70.

You're equating playing all of FFXIV to just playing FFX alone, but the real equation is comparing just ARR to FFX or just Heavensward to FFX – or the other way around, playing all of FFXIV is equivalent to playing FFX, FFX-2 and a hypothetical further three games up to FFX-5. It's just that XIV puts titles on its sequels instead of numbers.

If you care about your friends, don't try to sell anything to your friends be honest about it how you feel about game IMO.
I told my friends ups and downs (my personal opinions mostly), invited 9 friend in this game only 1 friend still playing but only shows up after new expansion and stops playing after 1 month.

[Iscah]

If you care about your friends, don't try to sell anything to your friends be honest about it how you feel about game IMO.

What I said above would be telling them honestly how I feel about it. If my description sounds appealing, they're going to enjoy the game, just like I have.

It's the other poster I'm responding to who is trying to claim you couldn't convince anyone to try the game by describing it as it stands, when their description is (IMO) a skewed one that misrepresents how the game is supposed to be played and therefore sets up the wrong expectations.

[LalaLlama]

What I said above would be telling them honestly how I feel about it. If my description sounds appealing, they're going to enjoy the game, just like I have.

It's the other poster I'm responding to who is trying to claim you couldn't convince anyone to try the game by describing it as it stands, when their description is (IMO) a skewed one that misrepresents how the game is supposed to be played and therefore sets up the wrong expectations.

What do you mean "how it's supposed to be played"? Games are supposed to be played how the person WANTS to play it, especially MMO's. Not everyone wants to pause the story and spend 100's of hours doing all of the side-quests and stuff, only to resume the story. I for one know a LOT of players that like to play through the story to as close to the end as possible, then go around and get everything else done.

I also love how you skipped over the other part of the person you quoted. They had asked 9 of their friend's to play and only 1 of them is still playing, but only on new expansions for a month before they go. That is 8 people that COULD have stuck around if they were able to play how THEY wanted too, rather than being told how to play. And this is only 1 person's experience.

The MSQ being as long as it is is a MASSIVE hurdle for a LOT of new players. Yes, they can go and experience everything else as well, but, again, not everyone wants to pause the story to go and do other content. I personally would much prefer to go through the game's story to as close to completion as I can, then come back and start doing everything else. This type of thing isn't available to me, because I first have to spent 100's of hours JUST doing the story.

[Iscah]

What do you mean "how it's supposed to be played"? Games are supposed to be played how the person WANTS to play it, especially MMO's.

I mean, the game is designed to have things that you can do at every stage of it, and the story is designed to be part of the experience.

Telling someone "you won't be able to start having fun until 200 hours into the game" is assuming that nobody can derive enjoyment from what comes before, instead of accurately describing what comes before (as I said, the equivalent of five 40-hour games not a single 200-hour game) and letting them decide whether that sounds interesting.

And "games should be played how the person want to play it" is a nice sentiment, but one that only goes so far. If you want to buy a car racing game and drive slowly, sure you can do that, but you won't get past the first level. If you want to play a war game and not kill anyone, good luck.

Those are exaggerations of course, but the fact is, the creators of the game set the basic plan of how you are intended to approach a game, and if you disagree with it you're probably going to have a bad time.

Also, I didn't "skip over" the other part of their reply, I simply have nothing to say regarding it. It is a natural fact of gaming and personal taste that people will try a game and dislike it. You don't need to sell a game to everyone, just the people who will enjoy it.

I personally would much prefer to go through the game's story to as close to completion as I can, then come back and start doing everything else. This type of thing isn't available to me, because I first have to spent 100's of hours JUST doing the story.

The thing is, you're viewing it as "one game that lasts 200 hours". Don't think of it that way.

Imagine that A Realm Reborn was a stand-alone game and the expansions are its sequels – separate games released years later with the same cast. Would you insist on playing the entire series before you can return to play ARR's post-credits activities or would you finish off everything in that game before putting it aside and starting on Heavensward?

[seraf]

I mean, the game is designed to have things that you can do at every stage of it, and the story is designed to be part of the experience.

Telling someone "you won't be able to start having fun until 200 hours into the game" is assuming that nobody can derive enjoyment from what comes before, instead of accurately describing what comes before (as I said, the equivalent of five 40-hour games not a single 200-hour game) and letting them decide whether that sounds interesting.

And "games should be played how the person want to play it" is a nice sentiment, but one that only goes so far. If you want to buy a car racing game and drive slowly, sure you can do that, but you won't get past the first level. If you want to play a war game and not kill anyone, good luck.

Those are exaggerations of course, but the fact is, the creators of the game set the basic plan of how you are intended to approach a game, and if you disagree with it you're probably going to have a bad time.

Also, I didn't "skip over" the other part of their reply, I simply have nothing to say regarding it. It is a natural fact of gaming and personal taste that people will try a game and dislike it. You don't need to sell a game to everyone, just the people who will enjoy it.




The thing is, you're viewing it as "one game that lasts 200 hours". Don't think of it that way.

Imagine that A Realm Reborn was a stand-alone game and the expansions are its sequels – separate games released years later with the same cast. Would you insist on playing the entire series before you can return to play ARR's post-credits activities or would you finish off everything in that game before putting it aside and starting on Heavensward?

I see where you're coming from with this but it doesn't hold up against this game because the story never ends. It would be like jumping into Season 6 of Game of Thrones instead of watching the first 5 in order. Sure you could enjoy it but you wouldn't know what's going on or who anyone is.

[LalaLlama]

Snip

You keep comparing it to separate games, when it is not. It's all 1 game. It's expansions of exactly the same game.

So, a better comparison would be games that add DLC to the end of their games to continue the story. If they used the same game but expanded the story further, such as DLC, then yes, I would play through THE WHOLE STORY including DLC's before I went back and did old stuff. If they had put FFX and FFX-2's story on the same disk/game, then yes, I would play through both FFX and FFX-2 before I went back and did everything else. Exactly the same as all 3 of the FFXIII's. Can't really compare FFXV with it though, since the majority of DLC's for that game were more exploration, dungeons and such. It didn't really add much to the main story.

I also never said I would tell people it's "200 hours before you can have fun in the game", I said to tell new players they have to play through 150-200 hours of story before they reach end-game. None of this is false. For those who want to get through the story to end-game so they can go back and do everything else, this is nothing but a hurdle. Adding ways to get through the story section quicker (Not stupidly quick, obviously) would not stop people from playing through the game at it's intended pace. If people enjoy a nice, slow-paced game, then, by all means, they can play it like that. But, making people who prefer to get a story quickly have to play exactly the same way as those people is just an awful way to look at things.

Giving options to players won't change anything, it'll in fact bring more players in. Who knows why those 8 players of the above person left, but, I can only assume it's to do with the MSQ. If the MSQ had been made shorter, or there had been other ways of getting through it at a quicker pace than 150-200 hours, maybe they would have stayed, and that's another 8 people into the game!

I really don't see what is so wrong for people to ask for options. it won't change how YOU play the game, YOU play it how you want too. But, it'll give people other ways to play the game how THEY want too, increasing the amount of players that actually stick around, which is nothing but a positive for the game, wouldn't you say?

[Iscah]

I see where you're coming from with this but it doesn't hold up against this game because the story never ends. It would be like jumping into Season 6 of Game of Thrones instead of watching the first 5 in order. Sure you could enjoy it but you wouldn't know what's going on or who anyone is.

I'm not quite sure what you're meaning. I'm not at any point suggesting to start at "Season 6" instead of watching the others first, so I'm a bit confused but I'm going to assume you're addressing the later part of my post.

I'm only saying that if, as was said in the quote i was addressing, you wanted to "finish the game" before starting on side content, I see that as what you do at the end of each single expansion. Not having to get through the ever expanding full content first and then return back to Season 1 story beats after you've watched all the way to Season 5.

(If anything, skipping the side content is the thing that's going to leave you scratching your head in Season 5 wondering how this plot point came out of the blue, when actually it was foreshadowed in the optional episodes you skipped over to get to the ending quicker.)

When the game ended at ARR, post-ARR was endgame and that was the point where the main game was finished and you'd do CT and Binding Coil. When Heavensward was current, reaching that expansion's endgame was time to do Alexander and the Warring Triad. And so on.

The game was never designed for you to have to do another three RPGs-worth of content before it was time to do any of the optional stuff; they fit into the narrative in that place.