A Toxic Culture in XIV

[IdowhatIwant]

That's a mindset. I regard progression as filling out and unlocking all the various story paths the game has established (plus the instances for roulettes), therefore progressing side stories is just as much "real" progress as anything else – and keeping all events chronological, besides.

If your only goal is to tear through the story to hit endgame and then never spend your time playing anything else except endgame, then yes, unlocking the older raids is a waste of specifically your time.

But that's not how everyone plays and it's not the philosophy the game is built around. The old raids are still relevant, have ongoing significance to the main plot, and people are playing them every day. Unlocking them, and levelling classes by playing them, is still progress towards something even if it isn't shortening the distance to get you to the current endgame raids.

I assume he means side quests, not the blue quests to unlock content. But yes those are very pointless outside of getting a story about a NPC or 2 that you will never see again and a little bit of gil.

[Payadopa]

Okay, a few examples.

If I get told to go kill 1 thing, do that, hand it in, then get told to go kill another thing, this can be done at the same time. I can't name the quest from the top of my head, but, I know there have been several like this. This doesn't need to be linear, it, again, can be done at the same time. It won't change the story.

Next is going from A-B, I'm told to head from A-B, but on the way I have to stop 3+ times to either kill a few mobs or speak to the person I'm meeting over there for some mundane reason. The killing of a few mobs is okay, but, having to stop to get 2-3 speech bubbles to then move on and get the same thing againjust slows down time. This is done a good amount.

Next is the pointless quests, where it tells you to go find something or speak to someone, then gives you 4+ spots to look or 4+ people to speak too and only 1 of them is the correct one. This just adds more time.

Then there's the "following the footprints" type quests. Yes, it's fine to follow them, but, it taking 5-10 seconds for it to say "These seem to head north" when you can CLEARLY see which direction they are going in. Why do I NEED to stop and "investigate" these footprints to know which direction they are going, when I can SEE which direction they are going.

Then there's the cutscene's for a lot of the new zones that you enter that are spoken like someone writing in a diary. These don't need to be in the game, especially when you get to the end of it, only to have to walk 3 STEPS to speak to the NPC and get another cutscene.

There is a LOT of filler things that are just there to drag the time played and nothing more. "We need to get ready for a war, so we need to get this, this, this and this done as fast as possible. But, we're going to make you do these tasks 1 at a time, rather than giving you all 4 at once, even though time is of the essence!".

I understand your sentiment more so cheers for that but I don't agree. What you call filler I could call immersion building. We all have different thresholds in that regard, I guess. But I also like talking to NPC and taking things slow.

The one thing I don't get, though, is why you think you have to do the MSQ at the exclusion of everything else? You don't need to reach end game to play with friends. And end game is, what, 4 fights at any given time anyway? Maybe I misunderstood.

I can't say I have an issue with the story or pacing. If I feel like I want to do some story I do the MSQ. If I feel like partying up then I do that and take a break from "reading". That's why XIV is a theme park. Mix and match. Heck, sometimes I come back from work at night and only listen to a podcast while ocean fishing. haha

[Payadopa]

I also fundamentally disagree with "I read books for story and I play games for gameplay" (I\\\\\\'m paraphrasing). I play games for both. And I don\\\\\\'t mind walking simulators either. That\\\\\\'s probably where the divide is coming from. But that\\\\\\'s neither here nor there.


Anyway. If I\\\\\\'d have to guess I\\\\\\'d say SE will make some sort of cut before 7.0 and ease new players into a new arc or whatever.
Until then you could always buy a story skip, play with your friends and do the story in a more digestible manner via NG+. Apart from having to spend money I think that\\\\\\'s a good compromise.

[Lunalepsy]

Greetings, the events of this day and the responses around the housing issue and other hot button points I feel have elicited a discussion over the title topic. I believe XIV has fostered a culture of toxic (for lack of a better word) positivity. What is toxic positivity? Its when all critique and dissenting opinions get drowned out in favor of a non-critical view and a glossing over of faults and issues. We've seen this today in blind defense of housing bugs that never should have happened. We've seen it in the past with character customization, limited races and hair styles, and bizarre job changes. I saw it personally today when in my server's (Siren) novice network some folks were discussing cutscenes in EW. I voiced the opinion that I thought there were too many and too long. This led to personal attacks. A short while later some other mentors and sprouts were discussing topics against ToS and I voiced that perhaps those topics were not appropriate for the channel, and this was met with more personal attacks with crude language. I sought to not violate ToS of my own accord, but the vitriol they were typing was quite against it. This led to a kick, and while I could report the language I do not want to be petty. I, however, have no other idea how we might combat this outside of reporting when these players have been so emboldened by this toxic positivity culture that has taken hold in XIV.

Are you new to gaming? The FFXIV community has always been like that.

[Wyakin]

The best thing that comes along with the toxic positivity is the “it’s ok to be bad if you’re having fun” attitude that comes along with it. Such fun playing a multiplayer game with people who can’t be bothered to play well.

[Katori96]

The best thing that comes along with the toxic positivity is the “it’s ok to be bad if you’re having fun” attitude that comes along with it. Such fun playing a multiplayer game with people who can’t be bothered to play well.

Your not wrong altho I feel like the definition of playing well varies from person to person which contributes to the problems with it.

Like one example I got is I don't see a tank that's doing 1 pull at a time as bad but I see the healer or dps pulling mobs for them as bad. Others think the exact opposite.

Now we can go on n on about what ifs n but this n that. Point is that no matter what someone's gonna be upset and honestly if the dungeons n classes were actually well made to be entertaining no matter what role you are or how you play this problem wouldn't be as big as it is today I think.

[LalaLlama]

I also fundamentally disagree with "I read books for story and I play games for gameplay" (I\\\\\\'m paraphrasing). I play games for both. And I don\\\\\\'t mind walking simulators either. That\\\\\\'s probably where the divide is coming from. But that\\\\\\'s neither here nor there.


Anyway. If I\\\\\\'d have to guess I\\\\\\'d say SE will make some sort of cut before 7.0 and ease new players into a new arc or whatever.
Until then you could always buy a story skip, play with your friends and do the story in a more digestible manner via NG+. Apart from having to spend money I think that\\\\\\'s a good compromise.

There's a difference though. People don't play Final Fantasy games to play walking simulators. They play it for the Story, but not for 150-200+ hours. Again, the problem itself isn't that the story is bad, I've seen most people who don't like the MSQ say the story is good. They say it's bad because of how long it takes to get somewhere.

A lot of old players don't seem to realise just how much content is between ARR-EW and how LONG it actually takes. Nor do they realise that is SUCH a daunting thing to see as a new player. Go to ANYONE who has never played FF14 before and try to get them to play, but make sure to say "You have to go through 150-200 hours of story first before you're able to play the end-game. Sure, you can go and do other things, but, for levelling your first class/job, they are meaningless", see how many people flock to the game. Yes, there might be a few, but, the majority of new players who have quit has been because of the MSQ itself. Doesn't that tell you how bad it is for new players?

[EagleDynamics]

There's a difference though. People don't play Final Fantasy games to play walking simulators. They play it for the Story, but not for 150-200+ hours. Again, the problem itself isn't that the story is bad, I've seen most people who don't like the MSQ say the story is good. They say it's bad because of how long it takes to get somewhere.

A lot of old players don't seem to realise just how much content is between ARR-EW and how LONG it actually takes. Nor do they realise that is SUCH a daunting thing to see as a new player. Go to ANYONE who has never played FF14 before and try to get them to play, but make sure to say "You have to go through 150-200 hours of story first before you're able to play the end-game. Sure, you can go and do other things, but, for levelling your first class/job, they are meaningless", see how many people flock to the game. Yes, there might be a few, but, the majority of new players who have quit has been because of the MSQ itself. Doesn't that tell you how bad it is for new players?

the story pacing being a slog was what made me dislike it. there are a few things i didnt like about the story but i couldve overlooked that if the pacing wasnt so poor.

[LalaLlama]

Snip

I don't "think" I have to do the MSQ at the exclusion of everything else. I know I can go and do other things. But, to me personally, there is no reason to go and do those other things, since, when I come back to the MSQ I'll be at exactly the same spot, at exactly the same level because almost every bit of combat AND the duties/trials are level synced. I could just unsync them (I think anyways, not sure) but, that defeats the purpose of the dungeon itself for me. So, instead of over-levelling the MSQ, I just continue with it.

I can also go around and get everything unlocked once I hit end-game, which is something I WANT to do. I WANT to go and do all the side-quests without it being detrimental to the story-progression. That's just how I play games, I get the main thing done till it hits the end-game portion of things, then go back and get everything else done.

I'll give FFX as an example again. I play through FFX as a linear story-mode until I beat Yunalesca and unlock the airship, then I go around doing the monster arena, capturing all the monsters in each zone x10, unlocking the celestial weapons etc. I don't mind the story section, because it's around 10-15 hours and I love the story (Though, FFIX is still my favourite). However, if the story was between 150-200 hours, I'd never get to the end-game, I'd just eventually go and look for another game and completely ignore FFX from then on.

I don't want to do this with FFXIV because there are a LOT of things I love about this game. But, it's just nagging in the back of my head that I still have at LEAST 2 single players game-worth of time before I get to the end-game (30+ hours) and I've already done 120+ hours on top of that, ruining the feel of progression itself.

There are people that don't like grinds themselves, so, imagine if you were FORCED into doing grinds for 150-200 hours before you get to the content you want to do. If it were 60-100 hours, it wouldn't be as bad. It'd be manageable. but, 150-200 hours? It's a lot to ask for a new player that see's content creators playing end-game stuff with 3 hotbars full of spells having a blast, only to realise that you still don't get a full class/job by level 50-60 and combat is still slow (Especially if you play as a healer).

I'm not saying that people who play this way are wrong, if they enjoy it, then good for them. But, expecting EVERYONE to enjoy it or just "don't play the game" is not how it should be. Not everyone enjoys a very slow-paced story-driven game, especially when the pace is 150-200 hours.

Of course, these are all just my opinions and I have a massive feeling SE won't do anything about it. But, that doesn't mean I shouldn't give them.

[kpxmanifesto]

The best thing that comes along with the toxic positivity is the “it’s ok to be bad if you’re having fun” attitude that comes along with it. Such fun playing a multiplayer game with people who can’t be bothered to play well.

Yeah that attitude definitely isn't good if someone's ineptitude is causing the entire group to wipe. That person at least should be receptive to other party member's tips and advice.