In regards to something involving the main cast

[Kozh]

For Venat’s case, convocation members are held to a different standard than the rest of the Ancients. Their office are considered as their life (people may hold their seat for a very long time too), so it is unusual for someone to not retire after it. Calling Venat a “rebel” isn’t technically wrong. That being said, while her choice raised an eyebrow, she’s also not treated differently (except wearing white robes). She is still treated respectfully, people still love her and generally have a positive view of her. They are being awfully tolerant of a person who went against their custom.

Another thing I may note, the Ancients are immortal beings. Having a purpose to fill before they retire is, in my opinion, a way to pass peacefully without regrets. Maybe even help them to estimate how much time they had left, since it’s clear that they don’t want to live forever.

(2/2)

[Rulakir]

It should be pointed out that it's only what he thinks Matoya will do when she realises he "isn't useful", but when he finally gets up the courage to actually speak about those fears, she has no intention of doing so.

Thanks for alerting me to this. I was sure I'd done all his quests, so I flew back out to her cave. I didn't realize he had more after the brooms. (Having started playing late last year I mostly went straight through the MSQ without doing much in the way of side quests.) Turned out to be a sweet quest chain I had missed. I'm glad he got a happy ending.

[Cleretic]

Not that I don't agree with your points here, but I'd like to just clarify that unless I'm missing something else that contradicts what we're told here, creations don't spontaneously gain a soul sometimes. In fact, it sounds like it's quite the opposite, that even creatures born of "natural phenomena" sometimes don't have souls (the lightning sprites/pneuma that we see just shortly after Hermes says that, for example).

Which to me, that explains a lot of why the researchers at Elpis seem adamant about testing whether their creations can survive on their own or not, because if your creation can endure on its own and have offspring, those offspring may have a chance of gaining a soul and being considered to be living.

Thinks for bringing this one up, because it actually brings up something interesting. Not only does it confirm that yeah, sometimes ensouled creations just happen albeit rarely (hello, Phoinix), but it raises an important case study that I'm surprised nobody has mentioned in regards to this, that is pretty closely paired with what Denishia raised:

Meteion.

Meteion wasn't made by natural phenomena; Hermes made her as part of an extensive project. That means that to the best of my recollection, no Meteion has a soul--and certainly, the way that Emet-Selch treats her compared to the confirmably ensouled non-Ancient creature we actually do see him interact with (the charybdis) suggests that even if she does have a soul, he isn't acting like they expect her to. But I think we all agree that Meteion is a cool person with feelings that's worthy of care and love, even if she doesn't have a soul that persists beyond her death.

So what makes her different from the other non-ensouled creatures in Elpis, like the ones that Meleton considers basically disposable prototypes? Are we so reliant on human traits for empathy that we're only basing this on the fact she has a human face? Is it just the fact that we know Meteion getting badfeels causes the apocalypse? As I've said multiple times, Y'shtola treats the nixie she puts in harm's way with a lot of empathy and respect; does the fact the nixie is ultimately an extension of her aether make it different? If it is effectively no different, is the respect Y'shtola gives enough to make up for what happened?

A lot of this definitely comes down to personal and subjective feelings on the level of 'how much do you care about the cow that meat came from', and I don't think there's anyone on Earth who enjoys those kinds of conversations. But if we're going to be talking about the inherent value of lives that are being snuffed out by people in this entirely fictional story, then I think we need to chew on the fact that the differences between Meteion and the butterflies Hythlodaeus asks you to kill for clothes are ultimately superficial.

[h-alpha]

Not only does it confirm that yeah, sometimes ensouled creations just happen albeit rarely (hello, Phoinix)...

True, although the phoenix gaining a soul seemed to be, at least from the perspective of Hades and Hythlodaeus in the sidestory, a freak accident caused by a drifting soul merging with the phoenix. So it seems as though yes it can happen, but it's a rare enough occurrence that Hades seemed surprised by it. Rare enough that no researcher in Elpis could realistically operate under the assumption that it can.

A lot of this definitely comes down to personal and subjective feelings on the level of 'how much do you care about the cow that meat came from', and I don't think there's anyone on Earth who enjoys those kinds of conversations. But if we're going to be talking about the inherent value of lives that are being snuffed out by people in this entirely fictional story, then I think we need to chew on the fact that the differences between Meteion and the butterflies Hythlodaeus asks you to kill for clothes are ultimately superficial.

It's the kind of philosophical questioning that I don't really care for sometimes, but this is essentially the issue. And the core of the story in Elpis: the Ancients did not see it as killing, they saw it as altering a concept, perfecting it, or reverting it back into its base components so it could be made better or made into something else. They saw death as a nonissue, so much so that Hythlodaeus is taken aback when Meteion uses the word at one point. And if their view of their own deaths was that it was an honorable, noble thing to return to the star after fulfilling one's purpose, of course that would be the same for the things they created.

I have to wonder, if the Final Days never happened, would there have been more people like Hermes down the road? People who disagreed with the status quo? What about Hermes made him see things differently from the rest of his people (outside of because the writers said so)? Were there already others out there that felt like he did?

[EaraGrace]

Meteion wasn't made by natural phenomena; Hermes made her as part of an extensive project. That means that to the best of my recollection, no Meteion has a soul--and certainly, the way that Emet-Selch treats her compared to the confirmably ensouled non-Ancient creature we actually do see him interact with (the charybdis) suggests that even if she does have a soul, he isn't acting like they expect her to. But I think we all agree that Meteion is a cool person with feelings that's worthy of care and love, even if she doesn't have a soul that persists beyond her death.

Hermes is actually really coy about whether she was made to have one or not. He leaves it up to interpretation, saying it doesn’t matter to him. And I’m not sure if we should read into Emets interactions with the Charybdis as an example. Hyth seemed quite taken with her, and while we can say that’s just out of novelty I think the same could apply to Emet.

This could be a interesting angle for the Omega quests though! Of all the beings we’ve met Omega and Alpha are the closest to embodying the “grown a soul” concept.

[CrownySuccubus]

For Venat’s case, convocation members are held to a different standard than the rest of the Ancients. Their office are considered as their life (people may hold their seat for a very long time too), so it is unusual for someone to not retire after it. Calling Venat a “rebel” isn’t technically wrong. That being said, while her choice raised an eyebrow, she’s also not treated differently (except wearing white robes). She is still treated respectfully, people still love her and generally have a positive view of her. They are being awfully tolerant of a person who went against their custom.

Another thing I may note, the Ancients are immortal beings. Having a purpose to fill before they retire is, in my opinion, a way to pass peacefully without regrets. Maybe even help them to estimate how much time they had left, since it’s clear that they don’t want to live forever.

(2/2)

It should be noted that the story implies that Venat views other Ancients' constant questions about when she will "finally return to the star" with the same weariness of a middle-aged career woman being asked "When are you gonna settle down and have a baby?". The people asking don't intend to be impolite or invasive, but the person being asked is obviously tired of having to justify their life choices and putting up with people treating them as weird. Venat states that she'll probably never return to the star, because there's always more to do and more people to help. But she tells only you this in complete confidence.

The entire situation, and the fact that Venat is reluctant to share this with anyone else, leaves speculation for whether the Ancients would have gotten more hostile toward Venat for breaking tradition once they realized her true intentions.

[Alleo]

Now i’m curious, why is this the case, and why is our character shown to be so adamant and shocked over this, and people are quick to bash the Ancients for being “reckless” with creations etc, meanwhile in this very patch Yshtola summons some familiars to send to the void that will be killed. Yet afaik our character says nothing, expresses no shock or concern. Is this yet another example of it’s okay when “we” do it but not anyone else? What does everyone else thing about this?

We may be shocked by the butterflies because unlike us who need to kill other creatues to get something to eat and clothes the ancients should be able to create them out of thin air. I mean we have a couple of fates in this region showing us exactly that. Also the other option was to ask, if its okay to just take these out because we are just visitors in this facility. Which imo makes sense to ask.

So bascially we have the Ancients on one side that do like to create and destroy living beings on a whim without the need to do that. While on the other side we have us split beings that are so weak in aether manipulation that we have to take our ressources from the beasts and animals by killing them. At the same time we are part of that circle of life because unlike the godlike ancients we are in danger of being eaten too.

About Ysthola and her familiars: I think the biggest difference is that the Ancients were able to create beings that either already got a soul or that might get one in later generations. Yet a lot of them still threated those beings like magical constructs. As far as we know Ystholas creations have no souls. We dont even know if they have any sort of real emotions. Bascially they are more like carbuncles and other summoned things. For me they are more like robots while the beings the ancient created were alive and had emotions. So yes there is imo a difference between that.
(And even though they are not alive, Ysthola still talked kindly to them afterwards and showed great care for them. She did not need to touch and speak to them like that, she could have just vanished them)

[KizuyaKatogami]

We may be shocked by the butterflies because unlike us who need to kill other creatues to get something to eat and clothes the ancients should be able to create them out of thin air. I mean we have a couple of fates in this region showing us exactly that. Also the other option was to ask, if its okay to just take these out because we are just visitors in this facility. Which imo makes sense to ask.

So bascially we have the Ancients on one side that do like to create and destroy living beings on a whim without the need to do that. While on the other side we have us split beings that are so weak in aether manipulation that we have to take our ressources from the beasts and animals by killing them. At the same time we are part of that circle of life because unlike the godlike ancients we are in danger of being eaten too.

About Ysthola and her familiars: I think the biggest difference is that the Ancients were able to create beings that either already got a soul or that might get one in later generations. Yet a lot of them still threated those beings like magical constructs. As far as we know Ystholas creations have no souls. We dont even know if they have any sort of real emotions. Bascially they are more like carbuncles and other summoned things. For me they are more like robots while the beings the ancient created were alive and had emotions. So yes there is imo a difference between that.
(And even though they are not alive, Ysthola still talked kindly to them afterwards and showed great care for them. She did not need to touch and speak to them like that, she could have just vanished them)

So if taking care and being kind to them makes it okay…then what makes the ancients wrong for what they do? They have literal funeral rites for them. Also….then can you try and explain the colosseum where people rip animals apart for sport and entertainment? Not even just for survival? Or what about the Eden primals. They were very much alive and had emotions and we created them just to kill them.

[Rulakir]

We may be shocked by the butterflies because unlike us who need to kill other creatues to get something to eat and clothes the ancients should be able to create them out of thin air.

They do. This was pointed out both in ShB side quests and in Elpis. The whole reason we have to kill the butterflies is because Emet refuses to conjure a robe for us and we can't make one ourselves. Otherwise, no butterflies would've been harmed.

[sidurgu-12]

So if taking care and being kind to them makes it okay…then what makes the ancients wrong for what they do? They have literal funeral rites for them. Also….then can you try and explain the colosseum where people rip animals apart for sport and entertainment? Not even just for survival? Or what about the Eden primals. They were very much alive and had emotions and we created them just to kill them.

taking eden raid completely out of context there. like way out of context. theyre at best flanderized versions of the originals who were summoned to help heal the world. by gathering specified aspected aether and dispersing it with their defeat.