In regards to something involving the main cast

[Cleretic]

I think the thing to keep in mind about Elpis and Amaurot isn't that it shows that they're worse, but that they're the same but in a much more powerful state. I mean, we're comparing them to the Scions because of similar actions, but the Scions are all basically confirmably Good People, while Elpis is instead full of people just doing their job with varying levels of morality about it. Realistically we should be comparing them more to a city full of regular people, like Sharlayan, Limsa or Ul'Dah, where they probably come out roughly equal all things considered (once you accept that Ul'Dah's main problem is that its worst people are all at the top).

However, those average people with average levels of morality who perhaps haven't figured out the customs we know are in a rather different place in Elpis, and are responsible for things with long-reaching effects. Someone who's kind of iffy about how they take care of animals in Limsa might be bad, but they won't affect much; that exact person in Elpis has effects that are felt twelve thousand years later. To a degree this is just a consequence of where the story put them, which sort of leads to them being an answer to a philosophical question; an all-knowing, seeing, and loving god can't be responsible for our world, because they wouldn't allow bad things in it, so that god must be imperfect. And in FFXIV, the answer to that is 'the people who made this world were as human as humans, which means some were kinda dumb and kinda terrible'; nobody can invent an apex predator and also be a good person, so therefore since apex predators were invented, their creators must not be good people.

Which then leads to a 'with great power comes great responsibility' situation; we hold these people to higher scrutiny, because their missteps do more damage.

[Rulakir]

And in FFXIV, the answer to that is 'the people who made this world were as human as humans, which means some were kinda dumb and kinda terrible'; nobody can invent an apex predator and also be a good person, so therefore since apex predators were invented, their creators must not be good people.

Which then leads to a 'with great power comes great responsibility' situation; we hold these people to higher scrutiny, because their missteps do more damage.

That's a Hell of a moral judgment to make and explains a lot as to why we'll never see eye to eye.

First of all, I don't agree with applying modern day standards to the past, especially when the sundered world exists as a result of a crime against mankind. Frankly, if the sundered are struggling with anything the Ancients created 12k years ago take it up with Venat. It certainly wouldn't be the first or only thing her sundering left people ill equipped to handle.

Second, you can't expect a society of 'godlike' beings to be concerned that several millennia in the future their race will be decimated to such an extent they lack the creation magic to even make a robe, something that's pointed out even small children are capable of doing and they can't comprehend why even that is too much for the WoL. Your expectations are unreasonable.

Third, saying good people wouldn't create apex predators is an inflammatory statement and that's all I'm going to say about it.

[Skyborne]

Sounds like we agree then.



Likewise, I don't believe the unsundered are morally inferior to the sundered or that their world deserved to be destroyed. Personally, I thought part of the point of Elpis was to show that the two aren't dissimilar.

Same mind. My general stance is: sundered = not bad. Unsundered = not bad. Funnily enough, I recall that Famitsu interview recently where Yoshida said the Ancients came across as "scary" but many of the JP players instead thought they were "good people".

Personally think the game itself does a disservice by flinging around "Perfect! Perfect! Perfect!" as hatebait. It was pretty obvious since 5.0 that their society was not perfect with hints to a darker past, but nonetheless, they won me over.

[MikkoAkure]

First of all, I don't agree with applying modern day standards to the past, especially when the sundered world exists as a result of a crime against mankind. Frankly, if the sundered are struggling with anything the Ancients created 12k years ago take it up with Venat. It certainly wouldn't be the first or only thing her sundering left people ill equipped to handle.

The people back then had a hell of a time with rogue creations too. The researchers in Elpis allude to more than just simple injuries happening and it's why there's a rule there that people need to have their hoods off, in order for better peripheral vision so they're not taken unawares. Then there's all the deaths of Ancients caused by the creatures let loose in Pandaemonium and Akademia Anyder.

Third, saying good people wouldn't create apex predators is an inflammatory statement and that's all I'm going to say about it.

Saying they weren't good people is a bit far, but at the same time I don't know what kind of sane person decides that the world needs flying wolves that breathe fire or land sharks. It feels like at some point, it stopped being more "about the Star" and more just because they could and they kept escalating from normal things like migratory birds until they got bored and started making deadlier things, following trends, and deciding to craft whole sapient species like Lupin. When "everyone else is doing it" and everyone else is also bored, ideas like that stop being silly and they also need to make bigger and scarier monsters in order to balance out the ecosystem from their other big and scary monsters but to a little WoL who is being introduced to all of this all at once, it's a bit much.

[Cleretic]

The people back then had a hell of a time with rogue creations too. The researchers in Elpis allude to more than just simple injuries happening and it's why there's a rule there that people need to have their hoods off, in order for better peripheral vision so they're not taken unawares. Then there's all the deaths of Ancients caused by the creatures let loose in Pandaemonium and Akademia Anyder.



Saying they weren't good people is a bit far, but at the same time I don't know what kind of sane person decides that the world needs flying wolves that breathe fire or land sharks. It feels like at some point, it stopped being more "about the Star" and more just because they could and they kept escalating from normal things like migratory birds until they got bored and started making deadlier things, following trends, and deciding to craft whole sapient species like Lupin. When "everyone else is doing it" and everyone else is also bored, ideas like that stop being silly and they also need to make bigger and scarier monsters in order to balance out the ecosystem from their other big and scary monsters but to a little WoL who is being introduced to all of this all at once, it's a bit much.

Yeah, you're getting it more than Rulakir seems to. I'm not saying that the Ancients were by and large bad people, I'm saying that the Ancients were people, and that like any people they had bad people, be it bad in terms of actually meaning ill or just bad in terms of not being very good at their thing. Which is an answer to a theological question about gods and intelligent design; the answer to 'why would good creators allow bad things to happen' can in fact be 'because the creators weren't good'.

Perhaps 'apex predator' was an ill choice of words, but you're right that the Ancients didn't design with purely kindness and necessity in mind, Ancients had other priorities that we can call out as 'hey that was kind of a dick move for us, the people who now have to live with these things'. The world that they made includes giant bipedal sharks, the Nepto Dragon, manticores, malboros, everything Meletos made, and all manner of other extremely, fundamentally nasty things to try to coexist in the world with. They did not create the world we walk with the view of kindness and fairness to all within it. That's unarguable, and we can call it cruel and inconsiderate because it was. And to deny that would also be to deny the Ancients' inherent humanity and agency.

The Ancients are people, for good and for ill. And sometimes, people suck.

[EaraGrace]

That's a Hell of a moral judgment to make and explains a lot as to why we'll never see eye to eye.

First of all, I don't agree with applying modern day standards to the past, especially when the sundered world exists as a result of a crime against mankind. Frankly, if the sundered are struggling with anything the Ancients created 12k years ago take it up with Venat. It certainly wouldn't be the first or only thing her sundering left people ill equipped to handle.

Perhaps I'm missing something but isn't that point of not judging the past due to the fact that we generally regard past societies as being less developed and less advanced in regards to moral and ethical thinking? Wouldn't it be just the opposite for the Ancients then, given their status as "enlightened, stewards of the star?"

And honestly if I had to choose between being well equipped to deal with bears or being better prepared with facing Meteion, the latter is the option I'd go with 100% of the time.

Second, you can't expect a society of 'godlike' beings to be concerned that several millennia in the future their race will be decimated to such an extent they lack the creation magic to even make a robe, something that's pointed out even small children are capable of doing and they can't comprehend why even that is too much for the WoL. Your expectations are unreasonable.

I partly agree with this, the Ancients couldn't have predicted when creating most of their creations that they would need to kill it post Sundering. Still I think Cleretic's point is that the Ancients reasons for creating such species was mostly vanity. While they did have criteria for what they released the fact that the Behemoth was approved should be a good indicator that maybe they aren't doing things purely for the benefit of the star.

Third, saying good people wouldn't create apex predators is an inflammatory statement and that's all I'm going to say about it.

I'd say making apex predators for the purpose of improving the function of certain habitats is a good reason and doesn't reflect poorly on anyone. Doing it just because you thought it'd be cool though? You're this guy.

Same mind. My general stance is: sundered = not bad. Unsundered = not bad. Funnily enough, I recall that Famitsu interview recently where Yoshida said the Ancients came across as "scary" but many of the JP players instead thought they were "good people".

Personally think the game itself does a disservice by flinging around "Perfect! Perfect! Perfect!" as hatebait. It was pretty obvious since 5.0 that their society was not perfect with hints to a darker past, but nonetheless, they won me over.

I think the purpose regarding the repeated use of perfect was to make clear that while the flaws were obvious to us, they were less so to the Amaurotines themselves, largely due to their mistakenly belief that they had a society, position, purpose etc. that gave them moral and intellectual superiority. That they were, in fact, perfect or close to it. This would also be what leads the Ascians to be... well... what they were. "Who are you? No one. Nothing."

[Theodric]

Saying they weren't good people is a bit far, but at the same time I don't know what kind of sane person decides that the world needs flying wolves that breathe fire or land sharks.

People who live in a fantasy setting, where such whimsical elements are a deep and intricate part of the genre.

It's...it's also a Final Fantasy game. FFVII in particular has some strange creature designs but is by no means the first in the series to embrace the weird and wonderful.

[Tehmon]

People who live in a fantasy setting, where such whimsical elements are a deep and intricate part of the genre.

It's...it's also a Final Fantasy game. FFVII in particular has some strange creature designs but is by no means the first in the series to embrace the weird and wonderful.

Other Final Fantasy games don't make the origin of strange powerful creatures and how an all-powerful ancient civilization treats them a pretty important plot point in their stories though, so that would be the difference, I think.

But this specific topic is hard to argue when we don't really know much about how life was in the star, and what it truly meant to '' return to the star. ''
Ancients made it their job to make the star a better place, and one has to wonder what part ferocious beasts play in such an undertaking.

[Theodric]

Ancients made it their job to make the star a better place, and one has to wonder what part ferocious beasts play in such an undertaking.

The same purpose they play in the real world. Without ferocious predators to keep the population of other creatures in balance, a predator's prey will inevitably cause environmental destruction. As cute as a gazelle may be, if left to graze with no limit then there's not going to be much in the way of grass which negatively impacts many other species. So the existence of a lion to feast upon the gazelle will ensure that the delicate balance remains intact. Aside from feeding the lion, the gazelle's carcass will also provide much needed nurturing for the soil itself. Furthermore, as it decays even bugs will serve a purpose - hastening the decay.

It's a safe bet that the Ancients themselves came to such conclusions during the course of their research, especially since they had entire academies devoted to different fields.

[Tehmon]

The same purpose they play in the real world. Without ferocious predators to keep the population of other creatures in balance, a predator's prey will inevitably cause environmental destruction. As cute as a gazelle may be, if left to graze with no limit then there's not going to be much in the way of grass which negatively impacts many other species. So the existence of a lion to feast upon the gazelle will ensure that the delicate balance remains intact. Aside from feeding the lion, the gazelle's carcass will also provide much needed nurturing for the soil itself. Furthermore, as it decays even bugs will serve a purpose - hastening the decay.

It's a safe bet that the Ancients themselves came to such conclusions during the course of their research, especially since they had entire academies devoted to different fields.

Yes, I understand the concept. The Circle Of Life from The Lion King is playing somewhere in the distance.

What I'm wondering about, is how these apex predators and volcanoes make the world better, as they definitely can oppose a massive threat to people. If the point is to make the life on star as great as possible, what purpose do these sources of, ironically, suffering and death, bring to the '' humankind '' if we can call it that, if ancients were trying to make the star a paradise. Or were they trying to make it a paradise, or just some other iteration they had in mind that would suffice the star? And if they did come to the conclusion that misery is part of the life in the star, and that humans don't reign supreme for merely existing, it does put an even more ironic twist to the entire story.

But if people living in the star aren't threatened by any of these things and are almost if not as capable as ancients themselves, doesn't the entire '' returning to the star '' seem much more odd in retrospect?

But alas, because we know very little of the unsundered existence beyond Elpis, Amaurot and the stars Meteia visit, and what we are told by biased sources, I don't know how to argue this topic, and can only ask questions.

In truth, everything you say can make perfectly logical sense, but it's as much of a theory than any other. Unless I missed something vital, which definitely can be the case.