Regarding the reaction to 6.1 SAM changes

[Ayche]

That level of logic is very limiting in of itself.

It is only the truth. On-demand +50% potency is going to limit any kind of weaponskill development.

[CuragaCura]

It is only the truth. On-demand +50% potency is going to limit any kind of weaponskill development.

What kind of single-celled organism did you pull that idea from?

[Ayche]

What kind of single-celled organism did you pull that idea from?

Less attitude okay. Anyway, it is the same reason why Reassemble is probably holding Machinist back on some level, where everything new has to be tuned around either being another Drill to work with it, or is just more Queen abilities that cannot be affected by Reassemble. A general ability keeping Machinist "kit" to speak from changing.

Also if you wanna respond to me, just quote me like a normal person please.

[CuragaCura]

Less attitude okay. Anyway, it is the same reason why Reassemble is probably holding Machinist back on some level, where everything new has to be tuned around either being another Drill to work with it, or is just more Queen abilities that cannot be affected by Reassemble. A general ability keeping Machinist "kit" to speak from changing.

Also if you wanna respond to me, just quote me like a normal person please.

So you went from Kaiten holding Samurai back to Reassemble MAYBE holding Machinist back. No matter how you look at it, you are not resolving the issue of identity loss by saying that it holds back the class because of some inane reason where having an ability block development of the class meant that new abilities cannot be developed for the class. How did Summon Bahamut get created if Summon Carbuncle was holding SMN back? Why can't Carbuncle just be perma-summoned out? Why is Ikishoten used to allow the use of Ogi Namikiri? Why isn't Summon Phoenix something that is created to replace Dreadwyrm Trance? It's an upgrade/replacement to an existing skill right? But shouldn't it block development of the class because the skill somehow... builds... off... the original kit? That's why I wonder if I ended up quoting something out of a single-cell organism. The idea that an ability can block the development of a class is actually so one-dimensional to me that I often times wonder if the experimental hypothesis for the statement was conceived as a harebrained scheme. But please, answer my original question of how then.

[Ayche]

But please, answer my original question of how then.

What was it again, "what if we just remove bahamut?" They already did take a sledgehammer to the summoner job and removed lot more interactions than just Kaiten, I find it funny that you even went with that comparison. Sure, remove Bahamut if that means we could get something more meaningful than the two Dragon/Firebird stances which are more like ruin spamming than anything else.
Now having played the new summoner in EW here and there, I have come to terms with the changes in hopes that this new framework gets developed into something better if the old shadowbringers kit had come to the end of its lifecycle. I still even have fond memories of having summoner's proper killable pets, even if trying to keep them alive was immense pain in the behind.

But let me be honest for a second, do you actually believe Kaiten is the bolt that locks Samurai identity in place? Is that not really Iaijutsu, which is not going anywhere? Kaiten is closer to NIN's Kaisatsu or DRG's Life Surge, they are predetermined prebuffs that you use when applicable. If it is the loss of the animation that stings, then sure cool animations are always a shame to lose. But Kaiten is just a ... buff.

[Quor]

What was it again, "what if we just remove bahamut?" They already did take a sledgehammer to the summoner job and removed lot more interactions than just Kaiten, I find it funny that you even went with that comparison. Sure, remove Bahamut if that means we could get something more meaningful than the two Dragon/Firebird stances which are more like ruin spamming than anything else.
Now having played the new summoner in EW here and there, I have come to terms with the changes in hopes that this new framework gets developed into something better if the old shadowbringers kit had come to the end of its lifecycle. I still even have fond memories of having summoner's proper killable pets, even if trying to keep them alive was immense pain in the behind.

But let me be honest for a second, do you actually believe Kaiten is the bolt that locks Samurai identity in place? Is that not really Iaijutsu, which is not going anywhere? Kaiten is closer to NIN's Kaisatsu or DRG's Life Surge, they are predetermined prebuffs that you use when applicable. If it is the loss of the animation that stings, then sure cool animations are always a shame to lose. But Kaiten is just a ... buff.

It's not just a "buff." It's resource management too. It's rewarding forethought and planning. As it stands now, you could remove Kenki, keep the CD skills of Senei/Guren/Gyoten/Yaten with their same CD's, give Shinten/Kyuten four shared charges on a 12s CD and....nothing would change. No one would notice that Kenki is gone. The 52-62 experience would be a little less boring since you'd be able to use Shinten more frequently than you would when it was locked to Kenki, but the play at 62+ would be unchanged from how it is now. Kaiten gave value to a lot of things, but most important of those things was Kenki. The gauge itself is now vestigal, effectively becoming the Shinten gauge.

[Ayche]

It's not just a "buff." It's resource management too. It's rewarding forethought and planning. As it stands now, you could remove Kenki, keep the CD skills of Senei/Guren/Gyoten/Yaten with their same CD's, give Shinten/Kyuten four shared charges on a 12s CD and....nothing would change. No one would notice that Kenki is gone. The 52-62 experience would be a little less boring since you'd be able to use Shinten more frequently than you would when it was locked to Kenki, but the play at 62+ would be unchanged from how it is now. Kaiten gave value to a lot of things, but most important of those things was Kenki. The gauge itself is now vestigal, effectively becoming the Shinten gauge.

Well, I have never felt a need to think about meeting the kenki for Kaiten since even most basic Yukikaze combo gets you the kenki for Kaiten since it is only 20 points. It is actually sometimes even hard to screw up,

It is correct that if they decided to buckle down and stick to current, even ShB SAM elements forever, it is possible to rearrange them in multiple ways to smooth out the damage. Like I can say that it could work, you could do that. Whether the values look right or feel right would be hard to judge, because would crit fishing Senei feel even worse due to its 2 minute timer or would feel weaker Kaiten+Midare itself feel bad? Like would it be worth it to keep all those actions in a watered down form? I don't know, you could bake in lot of conditional effects everywhere to keep it hard to solve.

[CuragaCura]

What was it again, "what if we just remove bahamut?" They already did take a sledgehammer to the summoner job and removed lot more interactions than just Kaiten, I find it funny that you even went with that comparison. Sure, remove Bahamut if that means we could get something more meaningful than the two Dragon/Firebird stances which are more like ruin spamming than anything else.
Now having played the new summoner in EW here and there, I have come to terms with the changes in hopes that this new framework gets developed into something better if the old shadowbringers kit had come to the end of its lifecycle. I still even have fond memories of having summoner's proper killable pets, even if trying to keep them alive was immense pain in the behind.

But let me be honest for a second, do you actually believe Kaiten is the bolt that locks Samurai identity in place? Is that not really Iaijutsu, which is not going anywhere? Kaiten is closer to NIN's Kaisatsu or DRG's Life Surge, they are predetermined prebuffs that you use when applicable. If it is the loss of the animation that stings, then sure cool animations are always a shame to lose. But Kaiten is just a ... buff.

You're being a single-dimensional facet of a troll or something here. I never said anything about removing Bahamut. Quote my entire post instead of just the last part of it and I might have actually assumed that you actually bothered to read and offer constructive criticism instead of just offering your meaningless opinion.

I never stated that Kaiten was the bolt that locks the Samurai identity. Don't infer extra details out of my statements. Kaiten is/was part of the identity skill that defines Samurai while acting as one of the greater sources of Kenki spending for potency. Using an example for you obviously won't work so I'd rather just tell you straight out that you are literally offering nothing to the original discussion.

So I'll countermand you with this. Bahamut just pads your DPS. You don't need Bahamut to use Wyrmwave automatically. He's just an extra buff or DOT effect or button that you can press for free damage. You should do all your damage with just your summoned pets or just Ruin III all day.

[FrogBiscuit]

It is only the truth. On-demand +50% potency is going to limit any kind of weapon skill development.

You do realize that kaiten was already limited to what moves it could be applied to, don't you?

not to mention that adjusting kaiten, or just disabling it for any new hypothetical move if a problem, would immediately nulify your current argument.

You seem to be making this argument from the position that the solution SE went with, was the only possible solution that could be applied to a future, hypothetical issue.


Do you really support robbing a class of its' enjoyment and identity for just that?