On the proposed changes to Ninja in 6.1

[Kolsykol]

What's wrong with having different openers for different situations? I'd love to think each job has a kit versatile enough to adapt to different fights.

The only inconsistency was an uncooperative tank (which, fine) or a boss that couldn't be pulled into a certain space. NIN played just fine in both of these situations.

It's not that, it's that Doton IS a DPS gain so when you can't do it then it just kinda feels bad that you can't do your optimal opener when everyone else can.
And no one likes having the boss be pulled to weird spots so a NIN can get the Doton damage in.
I think openers are kinda important they sorta set the flow I think everyone should be able to do their optimal opener every time it's kinda bs when a single Job doesn't.

Honestly tho I care more about this in dungeons because it made AoE much more fun.

[aloneatsea]

It's not that, it's that Doton IS a DPS gain so when you can't do it then it just kinda feels bad that you can't do your optimal opener when everyone else can.
And no one likes having the boss be pulled to weird spots so a NIN can get the Doton damage in.
I think openers are kinda important they sorta set the flow I think everyone should be able to do their optimal opener every time it's kinda bs when a single Job doesn't.

Honestly tho I care more about this in dungeons because it made AoE much more fun.

It's a DPS gain, but a very small one. I don't think there have been any complaints about 'not being able to do the optimal opener'. The DPS gain/loss is significant enough that it's worth doing, but insignificant enough that losing out on it wasn't going to meaningfully impact Ninja's standings.

I don't think anyone think that losing Doton in the opener is the end of the world, but...why? It feels very cruel on the part of the devs to punish Ninja players for creatively using their abilities to improve their DPS.

"You're not using Doton the right way, so we're taking it away from you!"

On top of the other changes, it's really just...

[VirusChris]

I have never heard of this Doton opener before. I usually cast Huton, go into Hide, and use Kaiton followed by Doton for large groups of mobs.

I guess I'm not too bothered by that change as much as I never used it before. Honestly, I like most of the changes to NIN. Have to play with the new changes to Mug and TA first though to get a better opinion.

[aloneatsea]

I have never heard of this Doton opener before. I usually cast Huton, go into Hide, and use Kaiton followed by Doton for large groups of mobs.

I guess I'm not too bothered by that change as much as I never used it before. Honestly, I like most of the changes to NIN. Have to play with the new changes to Mug and TA first though to get a better opinion.

It was only used in single-target situations! You'd cast Huton, drop a Doton, then Hide and immediately prepare Suiton, using it as the countdown hit 1. The tank would then pull the boss into your Doton, for a cheeky bit of damage. It also meant putting Phantom Kamaitachi inside your first Trick window was better than Aeolian Edge under Bunshin, as Phantom would proc Hollow Nozuchi for more overall damage. While not huge, it still felt good to do.

[VirusChris]

It was only used in single-target situations! You'd cast Huton, drop a Doton, then Hide and immediately prepare Suiton, using it as the countdown hit 1. The tank would then pull the boss into your Doton, for a cheeky bit of damage. It also meant putting Phantom Kamaitachi inside your first Trick window was better than Aeolian Edge under Bunshin, as Phantom would proc Hollow Nozuchi for more overall damage. While not huge, it still felt good to do.

Oh... that sounds pretty cool. Wish I knew about it.
Oh well.

PS: Also, nice to meet a Touhou fan here on the site. ^_^

[ArtificialxSky]

Aloneatsea, I enjoyed reading your thoughts. Well written. Clear and organized.

I've been a Ninja player since its release. I agree with your concern over the loss of our last 1 minute party buff job. Since Heavensward this game has slowly slid further into ease of play. I would like to save Trick Attack as a one minute party buff for the reasons you so succinctly expressed. It adds variety into the game. But no longer. It may be true that variety is not essential, but like you've detailed, there was no good reason to remove this particular form of variety. And I believe there remains yet more reason to ADD variety into the game with more one-minute buffs on other jobs. Wouldn't that be something. I can only hope SE understands this and that we can be loud enough to be heard.

If there was a petition I could sign that would make it to the dev teams desks, I would sign it. Do you know of anything like this?

[HoboBox]

I'm genuinely very upset with the changes to NIN. I had hoped against hope that they would have adjusted the damage buff to be stronger if they were doubling its recast, but no, of course not. So not only do we get a massive hit to our rDPS, we get to be patronized with a bunch of nigh-inconsequential potency buffs and a Trick Attack devoid of its original identity. Great.

Someone wanna crunch the numbers just so I can be 100% positive that losing 5% of the entire party's DPS every other minute is not made up for by getting 10% personal DPS every minute? Like, correct me if I'm wrong, but those don't sound equivalent in my head, like, not by a longshot. Isn't this just a flat-out rDPS nerf for NIN, not even looking at how much less desirable they are now for the rest of the party?

I was livid upon reading the patch notes. I can only hope that Square listens to the JP audience who apparently shares my outrage, because they're obviously not going to listen to NA or EU.

[CuragaCura]

I think you lose out of 10 secs of 5% damage for the raid every 2 minute cycle but you gain an additional 5% for 30 seconds to yourself in that same time period. I am not sure I like how this interaction works out since NIN's trick attack buff was something that has always been a boost for the whole party to benefit from. Like it makes more sense to me to execute Suiton for Trick attack to buff the party on the minute and use mug to buff your own damage for TCJ/Meisui burst rotations. The actual rotation still plays out similarly in my mind though with some minor changes.

[aloneatsea]

I'm genuinely very upset with the changes to NIN. I had hoped against hope that they would have adjusted the damage buff to be stronger if they were doubling its recast, but no, of course not. So not only do we get a massive hit to our rDPS, we get to be patronized with a bunch of nigh-inconsequential potency buffs and a Trick Attack devoid of its original identity. Great.

Someone wanna crunch the numbers just so I can be 100% positive that losing 5% of the entire party's DPS every other minute is not made up for by getting 10% personal DPS every minute? Like, correct me if I'm wrong, but those don't sound equivalent in my head, like, not by a longshot. Isn't this just a flat-out rDPS nerf for NIN, not even looking at how much less desirable they are now for the rest of the party?

I was livid upon reading the patch notes. I can only hope that Square listens to the JP audience who apparently shares my outrage, because they're obviously not going to listen to NA or EU.

The numbers are being crunched by people who are actually good at math (i.e. not me) as we speak. It's very difficult to account for an entirely new raid buff and personal buff. Early estimates project that Ninja will be on par, if not stronger than it was before 6.1. Which, imo, isn't great, given that Ninja was already competing with Dragoon for top DPS spot.

Ninja is still very desirable for buff comps due to how well it plays into buff windows. If anything, it's even more desirable now due to it's higher personal damage within those buff windows. I've seen talk projecting it as the new best dance partner.

I wouldn't worry about Ninja's strength -- I imagine we'll see some minor potency changes in 6.11 before the Ultimate, and that will bring anything that isn't right into alignment.

That said, I've cleared the new Extreme trial, and... mm, I'm not entirely happy with how things feel. I'll give it a bit more time to get used to the rotation, wait for the new opener to be mathed out, and try the new Alliance raid, but afterwards you can expect another thread from me detailing my thoughts on the changes, having played them.

I encourage everyone in this thread to do the same -- give this new Ninja a fair shot, and then return to the forums with targeted criticism about what you do and do not like about the job changes.

[aloneatsea]

Aloneatsea, I enjoyed reading your thoughts. Well written. Clear and organized.

I've been a Ninja player since its release. I agree with your concern over the loss of our last 1 minute party buff job. Since Heavensward this game has slowly slid further into ease of play. I would like to save Trick Attack as a one minute party buff for the reasons you so succinctly expressed. It adds variety into the game. But no longer. It may be true that variety is not essential, but like you've detailed, there was no good reason to remove this particular form of variety. And I believe there remains yet more reason to ADD variety into the game with more one-minute buffs on other jobs. Wouldn't that be something. I can only hope SE understands this and that we can be loud enough to be heard.

If there was a petition I could sign that would make it to the dev teams desks, I would sign it. Do you know of anything like this?

I'm glad my thoughts resonated with you. There is no petition to be signed, friend, but I would encourage you to continue to share your thoughts here on the OF until we receive some word from the developers. They seem to have the impression that Ninja players are unhappy, and have asked us to the the changes and give our feedback. The most we can do is exactly that.