Thread: On the proposed changes to Ninja in 6.1

Whether the "sky is falling" or not is irrelevant when part of this change doesn't even solve a major issue NIN has. The current change still has TA drifting except now it only messes with the NIN. Is that better? Yes. Does that mean it should take weeks to do something to not have this be the case? Nope. Ultimately TA now needs to at least become something entirely different and not just another buff. As it stands NIN now has Huton, TA, Kassatsu, Bunshin, and now Mug. We're getting a little silly with buffs/debuffs don't you think? I would propose that TA becomes either something entirely different and be some sort of high damage burst skill, like becoming a stronger version of what Mug currently is. Either way I think it's pretty good that these threads are popping up because I'd rather not wait several months for changes that just shift around issues instead of entirely solve them.

Originally Posted by Darksoul9669

We're getting a little silly with buffs/debuffs don't you think?

no not really
this is something i reallly like about Ninja that it has multiple ways of buffing and debuffing general class fantasy stuff,
would be so annoying if they slimmed down nin like trick just a No mercy like button(no suiton),hyosho just another button you push every minute etc etc.
I do hope they change shade shift either shorten CD or let me use it on other players so NIN can get some utility back.

Ninja has had various pieces of utility in the past outside of damage buffs, this is true. I did a little bit of research into what that utility was, however, and unless I'm mistaken, it's not so much that Ninja itself was stripped of utility, rather than the purpose of that utility was removed from the game itself -- thus removing the purpose of having such utility as part of NIN's kit in the first place.


In 2.4, on Ninja release, it seems like Ninja had a lot of utility. If you applied Kiss of the Wasp, you could stun an enemy upon using Jugulate. You also had Goad, which gave TP to other party members, and had Dancing Edge, which seemed to be useful if you didn't have a Warrior in the party to apply a slashing debuff. Then, of course, you had what would become the cornerstone ability, Trick Attack, which functioned more or less as it does today, except you didn't get the DPS up if you missed the positional. Yeesh.


On HW release, 3.0, it seems that most of this utility stayed intact. I'm unsure of the usefulness of the stun ability -- it seems the Alexander raids might have had more use for it? -- but the rest of your utility seemed fairly reasonable. Give TP, give slashing debuff, give dmg up with Trick. You additionally gained Smoke Screen and Shadewalker, which would reduce the enmity of a targeted party member, and give your enmity to a targeted party member respectively. I imagine this is where Ninja's role as an enmity manager came into play.

Come Stormblood, 4.0, things are looking slightly different. Your poisons are gone, and with it your extra stun, as is Dancing Edge, but you maintain the slashing debuff in the form of Shadowfang. You still have Smoke Screen and Shadewalker, but a copy of Shadewalker is now a role action. Ninja I imagine was still the best at enmity management, but the margin was thinning. Goad is also now a role action instead of Ninja's personal utility. Once more, you still have Trick. Depending on your perspective, you could argue here is where Ninja started to lose some of its perceived utility -- I imagine in the name of balance. I've only heard stories told by those who played in Heavensward, but it seems like Ninja was almost required in most parties to properly manage enmity (and provide TP). Did the changes in Stormblood improve that situation for other melee dps? I'm not sure, as I wasn't there, but I can see what they were trying to achieve with these changes in mind.

Shadowbringers, I believe, is where the biggest 'utility' loss comes into play, but the vast majority of that I think comes from system changes rather than personal changes to Ninja. Slashing/blunt/piercing debuffs are done away with, as some are inherently more useful than others (I recall monk was only able to buff itself?), which wreaks havoc on balance. TP is also done away with, which I don't imagine anybody missed all that much. Then, the changes to enmity management making Smoke Screen, Shadewalker and the role action essentially worthless. There was no need for these abilities to continue existing, as the systems that supported them also disappeared. Enmity management becomes much easier, in some such way.

Which leaves... Trick. The longest-standing 'utility' of Ninja, which existed before Ninja ever had anything to do with enmity management (TP and Goad were still very much Ninja's domain in ARR, as I understand).

Having done this research to give myself a bit of a history lesson on where Ninja comes from, I can understand the desire to see Ninja return to a more utility-based role, to give it more tools to contribute to the party outside of pure damage. My question to you, then, in light of the systems it used to support being removed is... what? What kind of utility would make sense for Ninja to have?

In my brain, the one that makes the most sense is the one that it has always had -- Trick Attack, a party buff on a one minute cooldown. I'm certainly not opposed to giving Ninja another form of party utility, but I don't see any path for it to return to having the same kind of utility it had in the past. FFXIV is simply not that game anymore.

In my mind, keeping Trick as it is -- the last remaining piece of Ninja's utility -- is the most sensible way to keep Ninja feeling like it contributes to the party in a way other than just raw damage. It's still damage, yes, but with Trick, we enable our party to deal more of it. It fits smoothly in the current two-minute burst world we live in, and in my opinion does not need to be changed.

I don't claim that my history summary is accurate -- if I am mistaken about things here, I encourage you to correct me. I've simply looked at Patch Notes and guides from the time -- I'm sure people who played during that era could provide a more accurate summation. I'm also sure I'm missing a lot of information about the roles of other jobs across the various expacs, and how they interacted with Ninja.

I don't really understand what the point is, TA already lined up with the other buffs...
We don't really know yet what the changes will fully be, if Mug still is the Ninki boost tho then our opener will be weird...
They may as well just remove the Ninki cost on Bunshin then.

Mug also just feels weird thematically as the damage buff, at least rename it Armor Crush and rename Armor Crush to something else.
Armor Crush doesn't make sense for a Huiton extension either.

And I also hope the damage buff won't be just 5%...
NIN being support DPS with a frequent damage buff was one of my favorite things about NIN.
Just making it a 5% 120s damage buff will homogenize it and just make it no different than the rest.

Edit: If they really wanted to fix something then I mean, Doton as part of your opener is the clunky stuff that remains imo.
Especially on some fights and if you're a PF warrior, what other Job has to deal with that in their opener?

Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Mug also just feels weird thematically as the damage buff, at least rename it Armor Crush and rename Armor Crush to something else.
Armor Crush doesn't make sense for a Huiton extension either.=

Mug should just have Sneak Attack's animation imo

Yeah, Mug just doesn't hit like Trick Attack does. Literally.

It really doesn't

Putting balance aside, just thematically, Trick Attack makes so much more sense as a party buff. I asked a friend who doesn't play 14 out of 'Mug' and 'Trick Attack' which sounds most like a party buff, and unsurprisingly, she said Trick Attack.

Mug is a bit of a nothing skill; I can't even bring the animation to mind. I get my +40 ninki, pop Bunshin/hit Bhava and move on. Trick, on the other hand, I remember very well... the cool double backstab....

You just have to imagine the boss taking 15 seconds to try and find where his wallet went while your team wales on him harder

Originally Posted by Kolsykol

I don't really understand what the point is

Originally Posted by Kolsykol

We don't really know yet what the changes will fully be

Add dozens of pages of internet drama and anger, and this pretty much sums up the forums on 6.1.

Its not unwarranted. Instead of explaining anything, the devs decide to reiterate ishgard housing for the 4th time, show lovable minion 582 for 15 minutes, and pawn off some crappy speakers. I kindly ask God king yoshida to put in a crumb of effort and spend 2 extra minutes explaining the changes next time. Ffxiv has been out for what, 9 years? This is pretty basic stuff. Even the idiots at ubisoft explain their changes, although their explanations are bad and out of touch. But I rather have a dumb explanation than nothing at all. Explaining what the mug raid buff which is what ninja will now bring will probably take like two sentences at most. If the devs don't want us to complain and piss our pants, put in more effort at being transparent. Adding two extra sentences to a presentation takes no money or any real effort. There is, as far as I can tell, no excuse.