Machinist class is dead

[Cyd3l]

That would hold if brd and dnc didn't bring much more utility along with higher DPS. Given that MCH is a fairly selfish dps, it should outdps the other two physical ranged jobs. And I am not sure the changes actually closes that dmg gap in any significant way.

It does out dps the other two physical ranged jobs, by a lot actually. If you're referring to RDPS and not DPS then yes it falls behind there. But if you think MCH should do more personal dmg than Bard and Dancer and also do more RDPS than Bard and Dancer, what exactly would be the point of Bard and Dancer even existing. MCH has issues for sure, the entire Phys Ranged role has issues. Simply making it outperform Bard and Dancer in everything isn't a solution.

There's a big issue with people on this forum demanding changes looking at FFLOGS (sorted by RDPS) and assuming thats personal DPS. MCH literally does around 15% more dmg than both Dancer and Bard in straight up DPS comparison.

[HyoMinPark]

It does out dps the other two physical ranged jobs, by a lot actually. If you're referring to RDPS and not DPS then yes it falls behind there. But if you think MCH should do more personal dmg than Bard and Dancer and also do more RDPS than Bard and Dancer, what exactly would be the point of Bard and Dancer even existing. MCH has issues for sure, the entire Phys Ranged role has issues. Simply making it outperform Bard and Dancer in everything isn't a solution.

There's a big issue with people on this forum demanding changes looking at FFLOGS (sorted by RDPS) and assuming thats personal DPS. MCH literally does around 15% more dmg than both Dancer and Bard in straight up DPS comparison.

You have to kind of look at both: because BRD and DNC are “support” physical ranged that buff the group, you consider rDPS for them. MCH is “selfish”, so you want to consider aDPS for them since it doesn’t bring any buffs to the group to get rDPS gains from. MCH obviously does more aDPS than BRD and DNC, but aDPS is not the metric that matters for them. It’s rDPS, so you look at that.
If we looked strictly at aDPS, a job like DNC would have been in the grave all last expansion—yet it dominated the role.

Currently, I’m looking at 95th percentiles for the Savage fights, and MCH’s aDPS does not outweigh the rDPS of BRD and DNC in P1S, P2S, P3S, or P4S phase 2. P4S door boss is the only fight at that percentile where MCH’s aDPS is close to the rDPS of BRD and DNC (around ~8,300 to 8,400)—and it’s still technically a bit lower.

I’m not sure how much the potency changes will give it, but it doesn’t really change the fact that MCH doesn’t bring anything to the table that BRD and DNC don’t already. The only thing it has is its damage, and BRD/DNC buff the party more than MCH gives damage.

[Cyd3l]

You have to kind of look at both: because BRD and DNC are “support” physical ranged that buff the group, you consider rDPS for them. MCH is “selfish”, so you want to consider aDPS for them since it doesn’t bring any buffs to the group to get rDPS gains from. MCH obviously does more aDPS than BRD and DNC, but aDPS is not the metric that matters for them. It’s rDPS, so you look at that.
If we looked strictly at aDPS, a job like DNC would have been in the grave all last expansion—yet it dominated the role.

Currently, I’m looking at 95th percentiles for the Savage fights, and MCH’s aDPS does not outweigh the rDPS of BRD and DNC in P1S, P2S, P3S, or P4S phase 2. P4S door boss is the only fight at that percentile where MCH’s aDPS is close to the rDPS of BRD and DNC (around ~8,300 to 8,400)—and it’s still technically a bit lower.

I’m not sure how much the potency changes will give it, but it doesn’t really change the fact that MCH doesn’t bring anything to the table that BRD and DNC don’t already. The only thing it has is its damage, and BRD/DNC buff the party more than MCH gives damage.

I agree you do have to look at both. MCH should be more in line with DNC and BRD but not better. If they are better then they are better in everything. Dancer takes a huge personal hit to DPS, everything you do solo in the game you are doing 25% worse than every other class. You can't even generate Esprit at the normal rate without a dance partner. The gains DNC and BRD get from RDPS aren't easily achieved either, they shine when the raid is doing well and near-perfect execution. Any player not optimizing properly, or dying will hurt BRD and DNC's raid DPS. That's a huge penalty to have to rely on everyone playing perfectly so that you can contribute an equal amount of DPS to the raid as "selfish personal DPS" classes.

Where as selfish dps classes only ever have to worry about their own performance. There are way less failure conditions for classes who don't rely on buffs than those who do to achieve their current RDPS score. MCH is low and does need bigger buffs to be more in line with bard and DNC, but no it should not do more than either of them in a raid situation or literally its the best Phys Ranged class for all styles of gameplay, cause Bard and DNC already suck outside of group play, MCH does not.

[ForteNightshade]

It does out dps the other two physical ranged jobs, by a lot actually. If you're referring to RDPS and not DPS then yes it falls behind there. But if you think MCH should do more personal dmg than Bard and Dancer and also do more RDPS than Bard and Dancer, what exactly would be the point of Bard and Dancer even existing. MCH has issues for sure, the entire Phys Ranged role has issues. Simply making it outperform Bard and Dancer in everything isn't a solution.

There's a big issue with people on this forum demanding changes looking at FFLOGS (sorted by RDPS) and assuming thats personal DPS. MCH literally does around 15% more dmg than both Dancer and Bard in straight up DPS comparison.

I'm going to quote myself from another post on this precise subject. Although, it's referring to Samurai, the same argument applies to Machinist in this scenario.

Samurai is a selfish job. rDPS is largely irrelevant to use as a solo metric for it. You need to look at aDPS, rDPS and how much damage it does under raid buffs. The latter is especially important. This video explains it far better but he highlights the difference between Warrior and Dark Knight and why the latter is overwhelmingly better. Under raid buffs, Dark Knight contributes nearly 1,200 rDPS under buffs whereas Warrior only contributes 500. Hence the gap between them is far higher than the 350 difference the rDPS tab suggestions. Their respective aDPS shows a staggering 700 difference.

All this aside, if you look at the speed meta, Samurai completely dominates with a whooping 36.4% amongst Melee in P1S.

When factoring in everything above, Samurai is, indeed, the strongest DPS since 6.08. Black Mage is competitive with it as are Ninja and Dragoon.

For specifics, allow me to highlight these three logs from top ranked Prange players to better illustrate the point.

Dancer gave 1,930 DPS while taking 436 for a net gain of 1,494 DPS
Bard gave 1,806 DPS while taking 573 for a net gain of 1,233 DPS
Machinist gave 0 DPS while taking 447 for a net gain of 447 DPS

As you can see, Dancer and Bard give an astronomical amount more overall DPS to the party due to buffing other jobs. Samurai, Black Mage and Dark Knight are benefit immensely from both jobs. Contrast that with Machinist that brings nothing and offers nothing. It's objectively weaker in every facet, hence why it's been entirely nonexistent in the speed meta this entire tier. Even a month in no one played it at that level. Not even 1%. Literally no one. White Mage, Paladin and Warrior all had more of a presence despite them being anti-speed. That's how bad Machinist is right now. This "buff" doesn't even nudge the needle.