Are we stuck with Summoner as it until next expac?

[aveyond-dreams]

FFXI's Summoner literally kept getting summons after the main story for that game ended. Do you not understand the point of the class being *summoning things*? I knew it wouldn't be long before the conversation took the turn it did, but I had hoped for something a little more grounded than "SE will never give us new summons!" Goodness.

Where they will fit them in is another question entirely, whether is glamours, gems, or demis. Now that there are no more irrelevant poisons spells to tack on each expansion, they can finally focus on stuff that belongs on Summoner.

[Edweena]

I remember hearing this argument a lot for MCH last expansion. Nothing happened.

It feels like they just didn't want to do anything at all with Machinist this expansion, seems like a lot of conservative effort for maintaining machinist as it was in SHB since people seemed to like it.
Now machinist has to reallllllly compete with a better bard (loads of QOL making it much better to play) and an already effective dancer kind of pushes Machinist down in the PHYS ranged role.
Some of the design philosophy seems to just really be #nochanges when it comes to jobs they know people like without considering how the job relates to others in it's role, as it's easy to say at least bard in SHB was a bit poor.

[Edweena]

FFXI's Summoner literally kept getting summons after the main story for that game ended. Do you not understand the point of the class being *summoning things*? I knew it wouldn't be long before the conversation took the turn it did, but I had hoped for something a little more grounded than "SE will never give us new summons!" Goodness.

Where they will fit them in is another question entirely, whether is glamours, gems, or demis. Now that there are no more irrelevant poisons spells to tack on each expansion, they can finally focus on stuff that belongs on Summoner.

More summons are very feasible with Phoenix (after activation), your Ifrit / Garuda / Titan could easily change into Shiva / Ramuh / Leviathan like that (and revert back to Ifrit / Garuda / Titan) and have minor mechanical differences, the job would still be largely the same.
It's essentially the largest non-change (it's like upgrading an ability) while fulfilling the summoner fantasy.
I myself would love for aetherflow to be a 30 sec cd like it was before (with hopefully 2 charges? more apm please), and axe ruin 4 or w/e since it just occupies a gcd we REALLY NEED to hard cast rez if we have to.
As it is right now I'm just likely to play BLM when I want to feel challenged, and RDM when I want to prog or go easy. SMN doesn't fit any sort of activity for me currently, unlike last expansion where I primarily played it.

[SlickPaws]

FFXI's Summoner literally kept getting summons after the main story for that game ended. Do you not understand the point of the class being *summoning things*? I knew it wouldn't be long before the conversation took the turn it did, but I had hoped for something a little more grounded than "SE will never give us new summons!" Goodness.

Where they will fit them in is another question entirely, whether is glamours, gems, or demis. Now that there are no more irrelevant poisons spells to tack on each expansion, they can finally focus on stuff that belongs on Summoner.

What if I don't want new summons though? What if I want DoTs and the ability to glamour all my summon animations into Carbuncles of various flavours?
More Carbuncles, less obnoxiously large summons that only appear for a few seconds anyway!

[aveyond-dreams]

What if I don't want new summons though? What if I want DoTs and the ability to glamour all my summon animations into Carbuncles of various flavours?
More Carbuncles, less obnoxiously large summons that only appear for a few seconds anyway!

There is no basis on which anyone can reasonably deny adding more Carbuncles as glam-sliding the hue slider on whatever texture file is assigned to its model will produce the desired effect. They should have added Obsidian, Diamond, and other color Carbuncles in ARR.

However, large summons is kind of the job fantasy that draws people to the job in most FF games, and what made FFXIV's SMN a joke for so long because it didn't have any until Bahamut was added in 2017. Dots aren't coming back to this job, at most we might get a 1-off thunderspark ability that doesn't need much in the way of management when Ramuh gets added.

[Ggwppino]

1) if you only hit 3 buttons you are doing sth wrong (i know what you mean)
2) it has 1 outdated heal and got 2 new ones. The Phoenix AOE HoT and a single target HoT that are really really good, sure they are not as easy and "on demand" like rdm but blm got nothing not even a rezz^^
3) after tuesday it still gives you a shield, but yeah its garbage and probably only here to trigger the summons until they find a way to remove that obstacle
4) wrong
5) i never ghosted the shield... just dont hit it right before you summon something.. its a 30second shield afterall ... plan ahead!
6) wrong
7) thats alot of versatily.. other jobs are close to that or even worse

all 3 casters play different and i like that.
Would i like the old summoner back? Yes, it was punishing and hard to master.

1) true, in burst phase 3 buttons + fester
2) yeah a heal that i can use in 20 sec every 2 minute, yup Is really good :/ also has a hot that is the same as that of the dnc but that it cannot plan. the blm is a selfish DPS that has a lot more DPS than rdm e and smn, it does not need the ress or utility because it is not designed as a utility class
3) nothing else
4) fester in burst Windows, shields, addle and? Nothing else. Garuda it's Just spam of Emerald rite
5) let's go back to point and line, you have to make some pretty early predictions, especially if you enter burst Windows. the other mitigations are instant, this is more of a side effect and I don't think it was designed that way (I refuse to think that it was a design choice to make it more difficult to shield yourself from beating up a boss)
6) if you can slidecast in ifrit you are a genius, if you explain to me how do you do it if it has a lower cooldown than the cast time? let's face it, it's not even that much of a problem considering all the instant spells that the smn has, but they stuffed it with instant spells but then it has to stand still for 2.5 seconds at each ruby ​​rite and splistream forcing it to use swiftcast and actually lose the ress, because if you hardcast the ress, first wipe the boss.
7) the other classes do not force you to enter the burst phase by causing you to lose all spells

[CKNovel]

I remember hearing this argument a lot for MCH last expansion. Nothing happened.

More than that, MCH was now actually worse due to the Queen being even more janky and heat gauge losing a lot of flexibility.
I could also argue "If MCH had the rework earlier, we would be summoning Cruise Chaser" but for EW we got Crown Collider that is by far among the most disappointing ability on level up. A trait that increases the damage of Pile Bunker would've been the same but with more control and less jankiness. But this is a SMN thread.

You can also add that to jobs that feels incomplete or weird such as Warrior maintaining a buff for some reason and DRK Dark side being virtually non existent. As long as you keep your MP away from being capped, you will never lose the buff.

Then you have jobs that feels incredibly good and complete but got even more complete with EW.
See GNB and RPR.

SMN is like this because SQEX wants it to be like this.

[Grimoire-M]

There is no basis on which anyone can reasonably deny adding more Carbuncles as glam-sliding the hue slider on whatever texture file is assigned to its model will produce the desired effect. They should have added Obsidian, Diamond, and other color Carbuncles in ARR.

However, large summons is kind of the job fantasy that draws people to the job in most FF games, and what made FFXIV's SMN a joke for so long because it didn't have any until Bahamut was added in 2017. Dots aren't coming back to this job, at most we might get a 1-off thunderspark ability that doesn't need much in the way of management when Ramuh gets added.

The reason it's not gonna happen is because it takes too much development resources and for all of that effort it's already been proven that it will not make the current iteration more fun than prior iterations in the LONG RUN. At best, it's just graphical upgrades. At worst, the job becomes a 60 second cutscene. And unlike the playstation, you can't implement a skip button on those terrible animations. That's what you're advocating for. And, frankly, past a certain point, people are here to play a videogame. Summoner will not survive without another rework to make it -able- to support an actual rotation. And I want that version because it'll be able to support actual Summons AND actual gameplay. This version doesn't. It's that simple.

[aveyond-dreams]

The reason it's not gonna happen is because it takes too much development resources and for all of that effort it's already been proven that it will not make the current iteration more fun than prior iterations in the LONG RUN. At best, it's just graphical upgrades. At worst, the job becomes a 60 second cutscene. And unlike the playstation, you can't implement a skip button on those terrible animations. That's what you're advocating for. And, frankly, past a certain point, people are here to play a videogame. Summoner will not survive without another rework to make it -able- to support an actual rotation. And I want that version because it'll be able to support actual Summons AND actual gameplay. This version doesn't. It's that simple.

1. The job will continue to receive new summons, whether you believe it will or not. You know, given that it's received one each expansion since Stormblood.

2. It already has a rotation. Whether you like it or not is another question entirely.

3. You'll get your new buttons in 7.0.

4. The chances of another total rework are extremely unlikely. What is more likely is building off the clean slate they made for themselves now. You can enjoy it in its current state or wait until 7.0 if that is your preference.

5. If you don't like big flashy summons then possibly Final Fantasy's Summoner is not the class you should be playing.

6. No, Carbuncle will not become the future of the job as you attempted to claim once in a previous thread, nor will they double down on the broken pet AI that made Summoner such a headache in previous expansions. Summons will now be 1-off animations or coded in the way of new Demis.

[elioaiko]

Personally I do understand why they changed SMN the way they did. There was always a conflicting design with it to begin with. It was a dot mage and a summoner rolled into one. Both the dots and summons/trance didn't correlate and that ended up in a messy and clunky kit. Pet AI being an issue for the longest.

I do suspect that SMN was supposed to be a different job when it got released. Perhaps a Necromancer befure they realized that didn't want the WoL to use evil magic (yet we have Reaper).

SMN for me right now just lacks filler. I think that the primal rotations before demi summons is a fine idea, and even fits the fast summons feeling like in Tactics. Perhaps they could add mini summons that act like oGCDs.

To elaborate, I personally don't like that the AoE regen and ST regen is locked behind a demi summon because you're never going to have it up for a time you may need it. Mini summons are just the egi versions of summons that act like the current Ifrit, Garuda, and Titan summons, pop in and then out.

We could have DPS-oriented mini summons like "Phantom Train" as an oGCD line AoE, or " Ramuh" as a ST dps button. Perhaps Shiva with a dot or cone AoE. Leviathan can be dot or line AoE as well. The possibilities are endless.

And then we get our support ones like Alexander with a ST regen with its time magic thing. Moogle for AoE regen or AoE magic shield.

They tore down SMN because they wanted a fresh start. Hopefully it works.