Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[HyoMinPark]

Yes I know that, I was just trying name some examples about rpg combat mechanics. Not necessarily saying that "elemental resistances" were the sole key to keeping it engaging. Please dont make such assumptions.

I’m responding to the examples you provided. The cards never had anything to do with any of the mechanics you listed—they were purely damage-based, defensive with regards to Bole, or resource management with Spire/Ewer. There’s no assumptions to be made when you are the one who provided these two as examples. I’m merely telling you that neither had any bearing on the cards because the cards never affected any of them. In other words, they’re irrelevant.

Im well aware that FFXIV originally had a more robust rpg centric combat system but I was making the point that the devs reasoning behind "simplifying" jobs were due to that change in philosophy over the years. Heck even WoW to an extent started to do that. In fact...a lot of MMOs seem to stray far from the complexities of stat based combat in favor of more action oriented style of combat. Just look at games like Lost Ark and BDO.

Would I prefer if we kept that old school design? Honestly I dont know. Part of me feels like combat looked a lot more interesting and engaging back then but another side of me thinks that there's a general beauty to simplification when it comes to combat. Usually a lot of people in those years were able to nerd about with complexities with rpg combat systems and I still do, its why I love to play single player rpgs that give me that experience but when MMO's started to attract more and more players with different game backgrounds, the mentality shifted less to be hardcore centric and more about making it just "fun".

This is where of course we all keep debating whether current job design is "fun" or not. Some people have arguments about this for both sides but its definitely something to think about when it comes to how modern rpgs play nowadays.

I don’t find any beauty in simplification. The aspects I found fun about certain jobs in the past all revolved around the complexities that have since been removed. BRD is a perfect example of a job that had complexity and interactivity within its own kit, and now it has neither. I don’t think any true healer main appreciates the simplification the healers have seen since SB—just based on the amount of threads complaining about healer design that have increased in frequency since ShB launch (and have also increased in the amount of salt).

In addition, the amount of complaints arising about the 6.1 changes to certain DPS jobs also implies that not everyone is so fond of the job changes the developers are coming out with. This is probably the first time where each side of the FFXIV community (NA, EU, and JP) are unified in their questioning of what is happening with NIN and SAM on Tuesday.

[Atelier-Bagur]

I’m responding to the examples you provided. The cards never had anything to do with any of the mechanics you listed—they were purely damage-based, defensive with regards to Bole, or resource management with Spire/Ewer. There’s no assumptions to be made when you are the one who provided these two as examples. I’m merely telling you that neither had anything bearing on the cards because the cards never affected any of them. In other words, they’re irrelevant.



I don’t find any beauty in simplification. The aspects I found fun about certain jobs in the past all revolved around the complexities that have since been removed. BRD is a perfect example of a job that had complexity and interactivity within its own kit, and now it has neither. I don’t think any true healer main appreciates the simplification the healers have seen since SB—just based on the amount of threads complaining about healer design that have increased in frequency since ShB launch (and have also increased in the amount of salt).

oh my goodness....stop making asinine assumptions about what I'm saying. Its like you deliberately ignore the entire point Im trying to make. Again I was just making a pure example on the combat design, not trying to focus on AST cards here.

Other than that, I understand your point. Like I said some people think its too complex for it own good, some people like you embrace it and finds it rewarding. Im in the middle ground with this at the end. At least if FFXIV is going to just be this simplified action tab targeting combat mmorpg as shown with their current job designs, at least allow the healers to have more dps buttons to press to accommodate for it.

[HyoMinPark]

oh my goodness....stop making asinine assumptions about what I'm saying. Its like you deliberately ignore the entire point Im trying to make. Again I was just making a pure example on the combat design, not trying to focus on AST cards here.

Then why are you quoting my posts talking about AST cards? Or mentioning them in your very own response to me?

I feel like the old card systems would have only worked so well if the combat designed was centered around tactical rpg mechanics, where the variety of buffs would benefit the party. This is easily done in a standard turned based system ala FFXI. But since FFXIV's rpg combat design has been simplified to be more focused on straight up DPS and has less emphasis on core rpg systems like elemental resistances, stat buffs etc then yeah there's no need for for the variety of flavors with the cards. Which is why the current AST card system seems lacking since every card has the same effects no matter what.

This doesn’t come off as a generalized statement. It comes off more as a direct response/speculation as to why you think the AST cards didn’t work. Especially since the general conversation prior to your post was about the old card system.


Perhaps if you are only responding to something “in general” instead of about a specific system, do not quote posts that are talking about specific systems.

[Atelier-Bagur]

Then why are you quoting my posts talking about AST cards? Or mentioning them in your very own response to me? Perhaps if you are only responding in general instead of about a specific system, do not quote posts that are talking about specific systems.

I was trying to make an example based on the topic you made! Why are we even arguing semantics here? This is so dumb.

[HyoMinPark]

I was trying to make an example based on the topic you made! Why are we even arguing semantics here? This is so dumb.

I provided responses directly to what you said. You’re the only one who is getting torn up over this, if I’m to be honest.

I explained why the card system didn’t work. I don’t think there was any “missing the point” when I just responded to points you yourself brought up. Be them made “in general” or in response to a specific system. I responded with regards to the system I was already talking about. Your post didn’t seem like it was made “in general” or “generally speaking”.

[Atelier-Bagur]

I provided responses directly to what you said. You’re the only one who is getting torn up over this, if I’m to be honest.

Only because you're arguing over an example I made. All I said first was:

"I feel like the old card systems would have only worked so well if the combat designed was centered around tactical rpg mechanics, where the variety of buffs would benefit the party. This is easily done in a standard turned based system ala FFXI. But since FFXIV's rpg combat design has been simplified to be more focused on straight up DPS and has less emphasis on core rpg systems like elemental resistances, stat buffs etc then yeah there's no need for for the variety of flavors with the cards. Which is why the current AST card system seems lacking since every card has the same effects no matter what."

that comment I made about elemental resistances and stat buffs was just me bringing an example to standard rpg combat systems. NOT Necessarily saying this is what AST cards were. I was making a general view based on what you brought up but then you start assuming that what I'm talking about is AST cards alone and I'm just sitting here like....Yeah I understand, but do you get the words that are coming out of my mouth? Clearly its going into one ear and out the other. And thats whats frustrating.

[HyoMinPark]

Only because you're arguing over an example I made. All I said first was:

"I feel like the old card systems would have only worked so well if the combat designed was centered around tactical rpg mechanics, where the variety of buffs would benefit the party. This is easily done in a standard turned based system ala FFXI. But since FFXIV's rpg combat design has been simplified to be more focused on straight up DPS and has less emphasis on core rpg systems like elemental resistances, stat buffs etc then yeah there's no need for for the variety of flavors with the cards. Which is why the current AST card system seems lacking since every card has the same effects no matter what."

that comment I made about elemental resistances and stat buffs was just me bringing an example to standard rpg combat systems. NOT Necessarily saying this is what AST cards were. I was making a general view based on what you brought up but then you start assuming that what I'm talking about is AST cards alone and I'm just sitting here like....Yeah I understand, but do you get the words that are coming out of my mouth? Clearly its going into one ear and out the other. And thats whats frustrating.

All I am doing is explaining that your assumption has no bearing on why the cards didn’t work—which why they didn’t work was already present in the post I made, but you just ignored that with your speculation. The lack of those combat systems was not why the old card system failed; it was because the old card system did not allow for damage cards and utility cards to exist simultaneously. You always had to make a choice, and damage-focused choices are already better. This could have been rectified with splitting the two instead into separate Spreads—it didn’t really need combat overhauls or a removal of “DPS focused” combat.

If you bothered to read my (admittedly) long response to you, you would have realized that. I only explained old FFXIV combat and what the AST cards were since it wasn’t inherently obvious what your prior knowledge on them was, and it seems like I somehow offended you by just trying to familiarize you with what they used to be. A lot of newer players don’t know what the old effects were, and I have no way of knowing if you were one or not, outside of your forum join date. I wasn’t trying to argue semantics, nor ignoring what you were saying. I was merely responding that your points about combat had no bearing on the old system.

That said, I am ending this conversation here. Clearly, there is no way to find amiable conversation between us. I hope you have a wonderful day.