What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[CrownySuccubus]

Yes, this is something I can't fundamentally agree with when applied to specific concepts like the writing choices in a single story, or specific individuals like Naoki Yoshida, Banri Oda, or Michael-Christopher Koji Fox. I'm not Japanese, but I can say, for what it's worth, I'm in a position in society where I'm very familiar with dehumanizing techniques and rhetoric. I'm not saying you're doing this (for the millionth time), but is it that difficult to understand why seeing someone ascribe individual choices to "it's because they're a part of this very broad cultural group" would make me uneasy?

Dude, individuals still live in a culture. Again, as I said before, even non-religious people say "Bless you" after sneezes. The person I was replying to even said that they are agnostic at best, but still has a Western/Christian understanding of souls.

Being an individual does not mean you don't have habits which results from the overarching culture.

The vast majority of people do not say "bless you" because Christian morality and values is "hard-coded into their subconscious." [...] They do it because it's seen as a polite and courteous gesture. Come on now.

THAT IS LITERALLY MY POINT.

I mean, okay. If you're not interested in apologies or trying to be understanding: in other words, your answer is no. You've done some research, read books and talked to some Japanese people. That's very cool. But you're not Japanese, and I'll be completely honest: it's a little weird to then take it upon yourself to speak very authoritatively on the "hard-coded subconscious" influences upon a very small group of individuals, working on an individual creative project.

Okay, if you need a Japanese person to tell you the same thing, then I can recommend you to Shogo of the "Ask Shogo" Youtube Channel, where he can tell you how a lot of current Japanese habits are rooted in Shinto, Buddhist, and Bushido origins and still persist today even if the individual person no longer believes in those specific ideologies.

And with that, I'm done with you.

[aveyond-dreams]

I had so many questions building up over time regarding those two and not a single one of them being answered in the expansion supposedly about wrapping up their story rendered me into an uncannily flat puddle. Expectations... subverted!

It sure would have been cool to witness Zodiark's actual summoning, as he comes into being and the Amaurotines huddling for safety or about to get eaten glance up at the skies returning to blue as the terminus creatures are vanished. A shot of the ruins and the post-apocalyptic wasteland of a world with its life all but wiped out so we could get an actual sense of loss and scale. Or Elidibus pooling and forming out from the core like the short story. Or Hydaelyn's own summoning. Or the clash between the two, the debate between the Amaurotines on how to proceed. What would have also been nice for worldbuilding? Actual solid numbers, an actual timeline of events.

But instead... vague fluffy Answers music video. Must've ran out of budget.

Didn't you hear? Apparently making Estinien put his foot on the balcony outside the Sharlayan *College Dorm* was one of the most expensive scenes in Endwalker. Look no further than the "slice of life" fluff to see where the budget that should've been spent on actual fantasy sequences has gone.

[SpectrePhantasia]

Crowny, your point doesn't really hold any water when you yourself are admitting that the actual root of these phrases and concepts can be so far divorced from their original context that they aren't even related, or hold any of the meaning anymore. If that's the case, how does this "subconscious force" have the impact you are claiming it does, on what is a very consciously designed story and world, with many differing viewpoints and people behind it? I'll have to take Brinne's side in saying this just seems like a generalization conjured from overthinking things. Having spectated your discussion, I'm failing to see what it is you're even trying to say here. But regardless, it's getting pretty far off topic so it's best just to let it lie.

Regardless of whatever the original influence was for these two deities it doesn't solve the problem that a lot of us wanted to see both Zodiark and Hydaelyn have ample screentime/development this expansion and we got neither. No duel between the two, barely any time where we got to see them in their godlike forms, no transformation sequences, nothing!

Unfortunately Zodiark can't really have development with the reveal that he was only ever a gundam suit. I have to say, not my favorite choice 5.3 made...

[Skyborne]

Didn't you hear? Apparently making Estinien put his foot on the balcony outside the Sharlayan *College Dorm* was one of the most expensive scenes in Endwalker. Look no further than the "slice of life" fluff to see where the budget that should've been spent on actual fantasy sequences has gone.

If true, goes to show they have not really learned much from gorillion polygon potted plants in 1.0. But this time, HD 8k archon loaf, strings of cheese slithering down G'raha's face and wiggly pickle physics.

On that note, was anyone else disappointed by how normal Sharlayan ended up being?

Yep. Aside from the big library with the mammets wandering about, I didn't get much of an impression of it being this exclusive and isolated city of learning and magic. I think the music, which is more fitting for an afterschool sitcom for teenagers, is partially to blame. FF4's Mysidia? The real deal. I did like Labyrinthos and its concept, although I kind of wish it had a more Ktsis-esque variation of environments. Wasn't it supposed to be this ambitious vault of life forms from all over the world?

[Theodric]

Didn't you hear? Apparently making Estinien put his foot on the balcony outside the Sharlayan *College Dorm* was one of the most expensive scenes in Endwalker. Look no further than the "slice of life" fluff to see where the budget that should've been spent on actual fantasy sequences has gone.

On that note, was anyone else disappointed by how normal Sharlayan ended up being? Every time we've interacted with anything Sharlayan outside of Endwalker it has always had sinister vibes to it. Eureka. The abandoned colony. The assassination squads sent to kill anyone sharing state secrets. It's a real shame it was simply reduced to a Disney style city of magic with no real grit. I also didn't like how the Scions had no reaction to the 'evacuation plan' picking and choosing which races were acceptable to take on board.

It's also annoying that it wasn't the Garleans who pieced together a spaceship given how that's...very much their sort of thing.

As an aside, do you have a source for that scene being expensive? It'd be good to dismantle the arguments that there's no wasteful spending.

[CrownySuccubus]

Crowny, your point doesn't really hold any water when you yourself are admitting that the actual root of these phrases and concepts can be so far divorced from their original context that they aren't even related, or hold any of the meaning anymore. If that's the case, how does this "subconscious force" have the impact you are claiming it does, on what is a very consciously designed story and world, with many differing viewpoints and people behind it?

Being divorced form original context does not change the fact that a ritual or ideal still exists. Especially for an abstract concept such as a "soul". My original point was that much of the world does not think of a "soul" the same way that Western, Judeo-Christian people think of it. Even if we ignore Japan entirely, there are LOTS of different cultural understandings on what means to have, lose or create a "soul".

Again, if you do not agree or need confirmation by a Japanese person, then I invite you to watch the videos by the aforementioned "Ask Shogo" and other studies on Japanese cultural traditions.

But regardless, it's getting pretty far off topic so it's best just to let it lie.

Then you really shouldn't have replied.

[SpectrePhantasia]

Being divorced form original context does not change the fact that a ritual or ideal still exists. Especially for an abstract concept such as a "soul". My original point was that much of the world does not think of a "soul" the same way that Western, Judeo-Christian people think of it. Even if we ignore Japan entirely, there are LOTS of different cultural understandings on what means to have, lose or create a "soul".

My friend, I am not denying that it exists, I am denying that it holds significance in this case to the writing decisions, something which you cannot prove with absolution. If nothing else though, I ask that you not be so transparently rude to people who very clearly mean no offense and are trying to engage you on the discussion in good-faith.

[CrownySuccubus]

My friend, I am not denying that it exists, I am denying that it holds significance in this case to the greater narrative, something which you cannot prove with absolution. If nothing else though, I ask that you not be so transparently rude to people who very clearly mean no offense and are trying to engage you on the discussion in good-faith.

My friend, all I'm offering is a different lens from which to view aspects of the story. If anything, it was my hope that explaining how some of these plot threads may be related to, or find root explanations in, Japanese culture/religion may open up new perspectives and understandings that go beyond a Eurocentric binary of "makes sense/doesn't make sense". My goal was not to definitively state "Yeah, Yoshi P and crew were definitely and intentionally hammering Japanese culture into this plot point", so much as providing new context. By all means, you can take it or leave it. So you can understand why it may seem a bit hollow for that to immediately be dismissed with "by claiming that Japanese culture may have at all influenced the game, you are dehumanizing Japanese people (but let me put in parentheses that you're not doing that so you don't get offended)".

If you want good faith, give it in kind.

[SpectrePhantasia]

My friend, all I'm offering is a different lens from which to view aspects of the story.

You know, if that's all you're doing, that's more than fair then, I apologize for misinterpreting you. But if I may offer the smallest criticism, it sounded pretty definitive. I understand though, that intent doesn't carry through text as easily as it does a vocal conversation.

Anyway, looking at it that way does give its own insights as to how the game approaches souls, but you gotta admit, FFXIV at this point is a blend of so much stuff, its kind of hard to see what inspiration is from where at times...

[CrownySuccubus]

You know, if that's all you're doing, that's more than fair then, I apologize for misinterpreting you. But if I may offer the smallest criticism, it sounded pretty definitive. I understand though, that intent doesn't carry through text as easily as it does a vocal conversation.

Which is why I let it go the first time Brinne did it. And the second time.

This time was just the last straw, especially the manner in which they did it.

Anyway, looking at it that way does gives its own insights as to how the game approaches souls, but you gotta admit, FFXIV at this point is a blend of so much stuff, its kind of hard to see what inspiration is from where at times...

You are correct. But I find that a fun challenge myself.

For example, while my Asian studies had already introduced me to the term "akasha", I had never heard of the word "entelechy" before this game, and boy did I have fun researching that topic and dissecting how it fit into the game's themes.