Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[Havenchild]

This is heavily biased and skewed though. You can argue a tank not properly using their cd’s well can result in them dying no matter what the healers do, and then it’s a wipe. A dps not being properly geared or not knowing their job can yes, result in not meeting a dps check and wiping the party, and this was a very prevalent problem for Titania. Many tankbusters nowadays are aoe, but even disregarding that, a tank is who holds aggro and has to properly mitigate lest they get one shot and then the entire party dies. At the very least, all roles responsibility is equal. Warriors can heal a shit ton now, same with paladins. Smn,Reaper,Dancer etc etc all have heals and rdm and smn even have rezzes that can pick up the slack for a healer.

You seem to be missing my point entirely or are willfully being ignorant.

Example: Curtain Call

You can survive and clear the raid with a DPS dropping mid mechanic but having high enough raid DPS. Higher ilvl in the party overall reduces the stress a DPS death will apply here.
You can survive said same mechanic with a tank dropping mid mechanic. Higher ilvl reduces party stress the same way as a DPS would.
You have a much higher chance of NOT surviving said mechanic with a healer going down here because you will not have enough healing for the raid to survive and a just ressed healer has essentially no MP (or very little), Gearing barely influences the surviving healers capability here nor the recovering healers lack of MP.

Use P3S for your tank example, if a Tank goes down, but they were popping mitigation, whose fault is it? Likely Healer.
If a tank goes down and they weren't popping mitigation, can the fight still be recovered? Depends on where the death occured but it's not an automatic wipe if it was the basic TB, especially if the healers can keep the DPS with aggro up till the tank ressurects.

P2S a DPS down on 3rd Convergence doesn't really affect the survivabilty of the raid (albeit 2 will die).
- A Tank going down during Convergence DOES directly affect the survivability of the raid.
- A Healer down during Convergence almost directly affects the survivability of the raid much in the way the tank does.

Almost every major mechanic in savage has a heal component that if a healer goes down, can automatically wipe the raid purely from a lack of healing perspective, not even directly failing a mechanic that directly causes a wipe.

Henceforth, NO other role has more responsibility than a Healer. Until you, I have never seen a Healer main actually claim that DPS and Tank roles have the same responsibilty levels.

I'll concede when TP was a thing, and Tanks actually had aggro rotations, both had far more responsibilties to manage on par with healers. But since SB? Nah you can pass me with that.

[Absurdity]

You seem to be missing my point entirely or are willfully being ignorant.

Example: Curtain Call

You can survive and clear the raid with a DPS dropping mid mechanic but having high enough raid DPS. Higher ilvl in the party overall reduces the stress a DPS death will apply here.
You can survive said same mechanic with a tank dropping mid mechanic. Higher ilvl reduces party stress the same way as a DPS would.
You have a much higher chance of NOT surviving said mechanic with a healer going down here because you will not have enough healing for the raid to survive and a just ressed healer has essentially no MP (or very little), Gearing barely influences the surviving healers capability here nor the recovering healers lack of MP.

Curtain Call is a rather bad example because sure, the healing check for that mechanic is pretty high...but so is the responsibility on literally everyone else in the party.

DPS and Tanks not properly mitigating the tether explosions? You're going to quickly exhaust your healing resources and wipe.
People being too late on breaking their tether? Everything gets desynced and unless everyone else adjusts to it you will have 2 tethers go off almost back-to-back and it becomes unhealable.
People not dodging the flamethrower? Not too much of an issue for tanks but a dps is very likely to drop dead if a tether goes off at the same time and if that dps still had a tether it's a wipe.

Whether or not a dead healer right before the mechanic becomes a problem also heavily depends on the healer's job. Sage has basically 0 MP issues even if they just got raised, the same goes for Astrologian.


If Curtain Call would only test a healer's primary function, the ability to heal, it would also be a joke. The mechanics leading up to it don't actually do a lot of damage so you have a vast amount of tools available to get the party up before the next spike of damage every 6 seconds.

Use P3S for your tank example, if a Tank goes down, but they were popping mitigation, whose fault is it? Likely Healer.

Yes and no. Not all mechanics hit for the same amount of damage, sometimes even the exact same tank buster can be deadlier later in a fight due to the mechanics leading up to it. It is a tank's job to figure out the proper mitigation to use for every mechanic that requires it.

Sometimes a tank dying with mitigation isn't the healer's fault, it just means the tank used the wrong mitigation for it.

[Havenchild]

Curtain Call is a rather bad example because sure, the healing check for that mechanic is pretty high...but so is the responsibility on literally everyone else in the party.

DPS and Tanks not properly mitigating the tether explosions? You're going to quickly exhaust your healing resources and wipe.
People being too late on breaking their tether? Everything gets desynced and unless everyone else adjusts to it you will have 2 tethers go off almost back-to-back and it becomes unhealable.
People not dodging the flamethrower? Not too much of an issue for tanks but a dps is very likely to drop dead if a tether goes off at the same time and if that dps still had a tether it's a wipe.

Whether or not a dead healer right before the mechanic becomes a problem also heavily depends on the healer's job. Sage has basically 0 MP issues even if they just got raised, the same goes for Astrologian.


If Curtain Call would only test a healer's primary function, the ability to heal, it would also be a joke. The mechanics leading up to it don't actually do a lot of damage so you have a vast amount of tools available to get the party up before the next spike of damage every 6 seconds.

If everyone does everything mechanically right, and someone dies, it's the healers fault. That is objective fact which can either be due to a lack of healing or a poorly timed heal.
I use Curtain Call as an example, of a situation where you can survive the mechanic (and complete the fight ) if a DPS or Tank drops and high enough raid DPS exists assuming everything else is mechanically sound. Sometimes due to server tick for example, a person can die cause the heal didn't hit in time when the tether had to go off. We've all seen these situations but this is not a guarantee death of the raid.

A healer however dying in a mechanic like this, where it is heavy healer reliant can almost reliably kill the raid there and then but I digress there are few times where it can still be recovered but let's not act like that's common occurence.

My point in that example was purely that if everyone else is playing perfectly, a bad healer who is not managing cds correctly (or dies) during such a mech is far more condusive to a wipe than a DPS or Tank missing a Reprisal or Addle. You can absolutely outheal the tether explosions with a lack of some mitigation from DPS / Tanks. Again PF is the best sample size I can give for this, where almost NO DPS mitigates without being told to and tanks barely Reprisal.

Thus the responsibility on a healer, perspectively, is definitely still higher. Even ilvl 580 - > 600 barely has influence on a healers ability to save a raid during these moments if the other healer goes down.

[AngeliouxRein]

My point in that example was purely that if everyone else is playing perfectly, a bad healer who is not managing cds correctly (or dies) during such a mech is far more condusive to a wipe than a DPS or Tank missing a Reprisal or Addle. You can absolutely outheal the tether explosions with a lack of some mitigation from DPS / Tanks. Again PF is the best sample size I can give for this, where almost NO DPS mitigates without being told to and tanks barely Reprisal.

Thus the responsibility on a healer, perspectively, is definitely still higher.

But a bad player will always be a bad player. A normal player (which can be from a newbie to veteran), on the other hand, will always naturally get better over time. You can give a healer 50 ways to keep a party alive but if it's in the hands of a bad healer it won't even make a difference. You're focusing way too much on an problematic healer vs a normal healer. When I was playing this game in HW and StB, I was hardly on these forums simply because I was too busy having fun as a healer main and SMN main. After the changes to both though, yeah I needed to vent.

The healers back then, had a lot more reasons to actually heal vs now. The reward for getting good during those days was that the other half of your kit can now be comfortably used and push you further. When I first played SCH back then, I was terrible. Over time, however, I got more comfortable and suddenly being able to use bane, dots, shadow flare, miasma 2 was the best part of mastering SCH. It was just satisfying to be able play SCH like that. Same for AST. Was terrible there too (especially on shield aspect). But just like SCH, I got good and was able to really put all of those unique cards and both aspects of AST to full use. Again, pure satisfaction. Healers back then had a literal choice on how to play their roles. If you were struggling, then just focus on keeping people alive. Once you got skilled, welcome to the wild side of being a healer. Now you can help burn the adds down with all those glorious AoE abilities. Apply those powerful 10-20% buffs to a dps or tank and manipulate those buffs even further after you applied them. The ultimate reward of gettin good on healer.

What the majority here is asking for is the option to have this type of skill floor for healers again. Where both veteran and newbies can have fun playing a healer again and not just one side or the other.

[Havenchild]

But a bad player will always be a bad player. A normal player (which can be from a newbie to veteran), on the other hand, will always naturally get better over time. You can give a healer 50 ways to keep a party alive but if it's in the hands of a bad healer it won't even make a difference. You're focusing way too much on an problematic healer vs a normal healer. When I was playing this game in HW and StB, I was hardly on these forums simply because I was too busy having fun as a healer main and SMN main. After the changes to both though, yeah I needed to vent.

The healers back then, had a lot more reasons to actually heal vs now. The reward for getting good during those days was that the other half of your kit can now be comfortably used and push you further. When I first played SCH back then, I was terrible. Over time, however, I got more comfortable and suddenly being able to use bane, dots, shadow flare, miasma 2 was the best part of mastering SCH. It was just satisfying to be able play SCH like that. Same for AST. Was terrible there too (especially on shield aspect). But just like SCH, I got good and was able to really put all of those unique cards and both aspects of AST to full use. Again, pure satisfaction. Healers back then had a literal choice on how to play their roles. If you were struggling, then just focus on keeping people alive. Once you got skilled, welcome to the wild side of being a healer. Now you can help burn the adds down with all those glorious AoE abilities. Apply those powerful 10-20% buffs to a dps or tank and manipulate those buffs even further after you applied them. The ultimate reward of gettin good on healer.

What the majority here is asking for is the option to have this type of skill floor for healers again. Where both veteran and newbies can have fun playing a healer again and not just one side or the other.

See I'm in the camp right down the middle. I understand the standpoint you are coming from. I played through all of those same moments and despite everything stated, do believe that they have stripped too much over the years. SHB being particularly gross.

However, I also believe that in some cases while mastering these aspects of those versions of SCH and AST were fun, I can see the other side of the fence where someone interested in playing a healer ran towards WHM instead or decided not to heal entirely because the perception of SCH and AST came off as too complex for entry. Countless people still believe SCH is far more complicated then it actually is for example.

I couldn't tell you how they resolve it beyond adding a skill or two back they removed or making encounters more heal intensive, but I think it's safe to say the latter is not going to happen much more different than what you currently have.

If they could aim all of the classes to where SGE is, personally I think thats the sweet spot for complexity but it needs to ,if even possible, be introduced slowly over time to the other healers. I also rather have them fix the glaring issues on WHM, AST, SCH currently before they consider added any layers.

[Nethereal]

I just want to make this clear though.

Keeping the tank as your target and spamming a single button(cure 2) all while using another to recover you mana(Lucid) ever so often and then using another button to heal the party(Medica 2) if the situation requires it all while still being able to keep the tank targeted is not hard. And if you think it is you should probably look inwards rather than outwards. Now if you don't think the above is hard and people are still dying while you're playing healer, then the issue isn't healing, it's you.

I find a large amount of the people making excuses for bad healers is that people already struggle healing currently.
Are they really struggling healing or are they simply just struggling. If you put them in a vacuum where they have 3 buttons and no other responsibilities is it their inability to hit the 3 buttons or everything else?
I would like to say that for the majority of the player base it's everything else, we've all been there it's fine but if you're one of the select few having an issue pressing those 3 buttons you should probably consider placing them in a more convenient place.
Disregarding dungeon pulls as they don't matter there is no boss in this game that can out damage a healer spamming their cure 2 equivalent, especially if they have a regen running. This isn't a healing issue, it's entirely a player issue.
And we shouldn't be catering to the extremes of either end, billy who can't hit 3 buttons should not be the reason EVERYONE can only hit 2 buttons.

Curtain Call is a rather bad example

It most definitely is. Shield up, tank lb3, don't do the mechanic, clear.